Episode 154: If you watch porn again, I'm divorcing you

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Hey, everybody, and welcome to another beautiful mastery Monday on the Self Mastery podcast. I'm your host, Zach Spafford. I've got an amazing treat for today's episode. I'm pretty excited about this. I'm excited to share one of my coaching calls with you today. I'll tell you more about that in a moment. If you haven't registered for my free masterclass, it's happening Wednesday night, August 17. At 730 Mountain Time, if you just go to zachspafford.com/freecall you'll be able to get registered there. 

Before we go and listen to that amazing coaching call that I'm going to share with you guys. I want to talk to you about something that you might have said or that your partner might have said to you. If you do this again, I'm leaving you and we're getting a divorce. So Darcy has used this threat on me more than once. Because of my pornography struggle, this threat was it was pretty real. To me, it was very real, very meaningful. It meant that all the disaster stories that I had heard were true and that I was destroying my marriage by choosing to view pornography. It cut to the core, it cut to the core of who I thought I was, it made being open and vulnerable with Darcy more difficult, and it made my agency subject to Darcy's anxieties while simultaneously disregarding my own anxieties. Now, by the way, I always say this, I hope you guys hear me when I say this. Please don't misinterpret what I'm saying. I'm not saying because your partner threatened you with divorce, that that's a good excuse to lie to them. In fact, we're going to go through that here a little bit. But I just want you to be aware of that's not what I'm saying. In the work that I do with men and women who struggle with pornography, there's an overarching question that lives in our minds,

because of ultimatums. And this isn't exclusive to men and women who struggle with pornography either; by the way, in many ways, every single one of us wrestles with this question. And the question is, and I heard this on a podcast that Jennifer Finlayson Fife was doing, she said, Do you choose me? Or do you choose me as long as I keep you happy with me? And this question is the embodiment of the way many of us treat our relationships with our spouses. For many women, this comes out in the ways that they choose to engage with their partner sexually. For many men, this comes out in the ways that they have to present themselves as kind of this knight in shining armor for their wives, you know, someone who does everything right and has no anxieties. So it's not exclusive to men, it's not exclusive to women, it's how we try to present ourselves so that our partner stays happy with us. 

You know, these particular things, you'll probably think of something in your relationship where you worry that if you don't live this way, your partner may not be happy with you, and, and not choose you. In the end. I know that I really felt that acutely in our marriage, and Darcy and his marriage, even in how, you know, things went at work, you know, I didn't feel   I could really tell Darcy what was going on with me, in my head. And emotionally, a lot of people have this in their religious relationship, right? So if you're a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and you're not, you're worried that your partner might leave you or be upset with you or not choose you because you don't go to church anymore. That's, that's part of what we're talking about here. Now, that present itself, that person that I was that I thought Darcy wanted me to be, I wanted Darcy to see me as that person who was making myself into someone who kept Darcy happy with me. So I was pretending to be someone that I wasn't in order to have Darcy be happy with me. And as a result, 

I felt fundamentally insecure in my relationship with her. I don't know if you know if she really chose me. Or if she really knew me at that time, I didn't really know. And I kind of thought that she would reject me if she knew who I was. Her ultimatum to never view porn again or get a divorce was kind of a real indicator that if I didn't keep her happy with me, then she wouldn't choose me. And husbands do this to their wives. I'm not saying that this is something that just Darcy ever did to me. And she, you know, she's a bad person, by the way. You know, it was part of our growing process to learn this and go through this process of figuring out, Wait, I don't want my partner too, you know, Have an ultimatum, 

I want my partner to be real with me. And then we can learn and grow together. This last week, during a coaching session with one of my favorite clients, we were talking about his new girlfriend. And he's pretty excited about the relationship and is enjoying all the fun that they're having together. And I'd to share that conversation with you. And hopefully, as you listen, you can hear how this young man is struggling to keep his partner happy with him and how ultimately, he realizes that being real with her is more valuable than presenting a certain face to her. And I'm gonna apologize for upfront; the audio quality isn't perfect. It's not spectacular. But really, what I'm hoping to give you is the content, not the audio quality. So bear with me bear with the sound for a little bit, but I think you'll enjoy this conversation.

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I've been pretty good. Yeah, better sec. Just enjoying the summer. So tell me, how are things going with? With pornography? How are things going with dating, then? Oh, that was a lot of fun. Last time we got pornography usage has. It's steadily declining? Yes. So that's pretty cool. I think part of it just has other things to be busy with. It's just been a busy summer have been a really fun summer, probably, twice a week or so. Which I'm trying to celebrate. Because I think lat last we spoke, it was every day were multiple times a day because I was just really going through stuff. I can tell. I'm noticing just trends,   you know, and how I'm feeling and how it's related to how much I'm using pornography. The dating has been good. 

I've been dating around super actively. And that's been a fun time. There's this girl now that I've been seeing for about a month. She's really, really cool. That was one thing I wanted to talk to you about, as I'm getting these feelings. And obviously, they're not terribly serious. It's only been a month, but more serious feelings than I felt, I think, probably ever. And there's a belief of mine that creeps in that pornography has kind of jaded me jaded my ability to gain really deep feelings for somebody. Rationally, I don't think that that's true. But it's also feeling this way about her that has also made me feel extra committed to getting over this, you know? Sure. But the main fear is, oh my gosh, my parents divorced due to addiction and such. That's just a nonstarter for me. I know that it. A  lot of your coaching is, you know, most of it has to do with, you know, married couples and things that. Right? It's scary. Yeah, it's different. 

Yeah, there are more emotions involved with it, more fear involved, for sure. Just, wow, if they knew this about me, though, they wouldn't. She doesn't know right now. No, I don't know if we've talked about differentiation in any depth. But one of the things that I think you're struggling with, and then I think you're seeing from your parentage, right? So we all, we are all about the same level of differentiation as our parents, the difficulty is okay, how do I, how do I increase that, oftentimes marriage is a really great way to do that, partly because marriage requires you to confront the way that you behave.

What do you mean, differentiation, so the same amount of differentiation as our parents? So differentiation is our level of capacity to be solid in the self that we are. So I'm good with the way that I behave while also being capable of choosing intimacy and closeness with other people without folding into their anxieties. It's a somewhat complicated idea, but it boils down to this. So as I hear you talking about what's this girl's name, named Miss McCall, the call right? So we're talking about McCall. And one of the things you're saying here is feeling this way about her has made me extra committed to getting over pornography. So one of the things that that reads as is, I want to stop viewing porn so that I can manage the way that she will feel about me so I can engage her in feeling about, manage the way that she views who I am Yeah, essentially, you know, in an ideal world, she would never have to, I would never have to confront this and her in front of her, you know, ideally, I would bring this up and be, that was something in the past though, so we're good, right? Do you know? Yeah, so right,

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You want to feel a certain way. You want to feel   I'm a good enough guy; I'm a good guy, I'm the kind of guy that should want, I'm the kind of guy should want to be around all of those things. So differentiation says I'm not as concerned with how she feels about me as I am about who I am because it's who I want to be. And I can choose closeness with her, meaning I can enjoy the activities with her, I can be with her, I can tell her who I really am from a perspective of intimacy, right? So intimacy is not sex or, you know, anything. From, you know, holding hands all the way to sex. Intimacy, real intimacy, is my partner knowing who I am and loving me, maybe in spite of all of my terrible, right? That's what real intimacy is, being able to know someone and love them, even though you really know who they are. That's what intimacy is. What you're describing to me is right. 

I don't want her to ever have to confront this with me. Yeah, that might be a possibility. It's not. It's not an unknown possibility. But it's more likely that if I'm worried about how she will handle who I am, I'm more likely to lie to her. I'm more ly to tell her what she wants to hear. I'm more  ly to tell her things that will keep me from being in trouble in trouble Because you're trying to manage how they feel,right?

You're managing how they feel. You're managing how you're trying to manage how you feel by managing how they feel. Right? So it's a lot of feelings management. And I imagine if you look at  your parental relationships,   I bet you try to manage how your parents feel about you. Yeah, right. Yeah. Instead of just being, well, this is what's real. This is how it really goes for me. This is how I really feel. You manage them in an effort to show that I'm a good boy, I'm a good son, I'm a good child, I'm a good brother, right? All of those things. I am the right kind of person so that you don't get frustrated, upset, mad, angry, or reject me, which is really the issue. 

So you don't reject me? Yeah. And that's really what you're doing here with her is you're saying, Well, I, I really am, I'm extra committed to this not being a problem so that she doesn't reject me. I can manage whether or not she rejects me on this front anyway. Now, the good news is now that you know that you can be aware of it. Also, the bad news is you can never manage someone enough.   at some point, one of two things is going to happen. You're either going to violate yourself through the management of the other person. So you're going to do something that you really don't want. In order to manage that person continue to affirm or validate who you are. Or you're going to reject that person; you're going to push them away. And, you probably have, you probably have a really good view of this with your parents. Right? It's there was probably a lot of over-functioning on your mom's part when your dad started to use drugs. There's probably a lot of managing of emotions on your dad's part from your mom. When we think about certain things, I can tell her she can't handle everything, all of that. So just being aware of that, now it's time for you to go will in what ways I am managing other people so that I can get their validation. There's a good book called no more, Mr. Nice Guy. It's probably a book you ought to read. Yeah,

I've seen, I've seen. I've heard of that. Looks good. Yeah, it's, it's a quick read. I mean, if you read it on Audible, you can get through it in a few hours. There are some things that I don't really agree with him on in terms of the way that he goes about not being a nice guy because being a nice guy is an immature position that's designed to look require validation. And being a dick is an immature position that is designed to set yourself up as not needing validation or not needing others. So not having closeness with others. So it's kind of interesting, and he kind of goes into the be a dick because that's better than being a nice guy mode and some in some parts of the book. So just be aware of that. If you want to know if you can have real intimacy, you have to be willing to risks. So what does that look like? Well, taking risks looks like saying to McCall, this is who I really am. 

This is what's really going on for me. I, I view pornography about twice a week. And I'm working through that with someone, and I'm doing, and I'm doing exercises to learn about how I can not choose pornography. And you're, I can see right now, you're, Oh, no way. I can't tell her this. Right?. And if she knows, she could say no; she could be. Yeah. Which, which means that you are not going to have intimacy. Not true intimacy, not the kind of intimacy where she knows everything about you. 

And you know everything about her. And you still choose each other because you want to choose each other now because you're obligated. Sometimes I think we think of marriage as this place where we obligate someone to us, and then they can't leave unless things get really bad. But really, and truly, marriage is about and real. All relationships, even your friendships with your best friends, all relationships are about; we have a mutual choice. We hang out with each other. And if we don't want to hang out with each other, we can peace out. And then, you know, there are some, there are some barriers, there are some contractual obligations. There are some things that make it harder to get out of a marriage than, say, hanging out with your best friend. But in real terms, there's little difference. And rather than taking someone's choice, because when we do when they don't know who we are, we're taking the choice from them. We're saying to them; I don't trust that you'll make a good choice. And I don't want you to make a choice that will hurt me.

Yeah, so I'm just gonna, I'm going to puppeteer this thing so that it works the way I want. How's that feel? You're the puppet master, man. Well, it's exhausting. It is exhausting. It's actually exhausting. Let me ask you this. Sure. You and I both know how you and I both have a good idea of what the general population believes about pornography. Those that haven't experienced it, those within the church. How, and we also know that the church is, you know, slowly but surely progressing. If you know how we talk about pornography.  , you know, just as I've progressed through bishops, each bishop has gotten a little more accepting of the idea that the first bishop I told was just, oh, no. You know, the reason I bring that up, how how, it's, it's scary too, it's hard to not try and manage someone I feel I rehearse maybe telling somebody about it that I care about in my, in my mind, I feel there's a lot they need to understand about it first before they make a decision. It feels like it would require much management. Maybe it's a more acceptable idea, then; maybe I'm just not giving   McCall, for example, enough credit. She takes the law of chastity stuff very, very seriously. We've had, we've had good conversations about this.

Yeah, there's just there's, there are a lot of people who don't understand about pornography and just, okay, hold up. It's, you know, it's just you're trying to manage your emotions; you're buffering away your emotions. It's not because somebody in your life who you're trying to be intimate with isn't beautiful enough or this or that, and it's not because you're a pervert. How can I choose not to manage that?

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Well, let me ask you, do you really Want to be with someone that you have to manage? Do you want to be with someone who doesn't want to know who you really are? Do you want to have to play pretend every day of your life? No, I don't know; this is tough, right? Because you're, Well, what if I never find simple, I can guarantee you that the more differentiated you become. So again, this is the more solid in yourself that you become and willing to risk. Someone actually knows who you are without folding into their anxieties because that's one component of it, right? 

We become anxious because they're anxious. Thinking Think about your mom, right? How many times? Did she unfold into the anxieties of your father? How many times did your father fold into the anxieties of your mother to the point where he's, I gotta go do drugs? I gotta get away from us. Yeah, it would take not to become anxious about someone I've shared this with. It's not about not becoming anxious. You have your own anxieties. It's about not becoming in folded into their anxiety. So what that means is. I don't have to solve your anxieties. I only have to feel mine. So let's walk through. So with McCall, this might sound, hey, I want you to know something really important about me. It's something that I've been working on for a long time.

It's not something I'm proud of. But I think it's important that you know who I am. Because if we're going to continue dating, knowing who I mean, you get to make a choice. You get to choose whether or not I'm someone you want to spend time with. I, I view pornography on occasion. And I'm working on it. And it's not something you know I am proud of, but it's who I am. And I want you to understand who I am. So you can make an informed decision about our relationship. Now, what do you think she'll say? Thanks for telling me.

Okay, what else? What the hell? Right? What the hell? Are you doing that? Why are you doing that? This is how long have you been doing that? For years, most of my life? Why hasn't it stopped? But it's bad? That's a good question. Part of that is I am learning new skills that are required to manage this one of those skills, in fact, is learning to be more open about who I really am and be willing to risk my rejection. In fact, because porn never rejects anybody for never says no, it never. You know, it's always on. It's always available. It's always what I want it to be. And I'm learning that I don't want something that manages me because that's what porn does. I want to have real, truly open, honest intimacy, which means you'll have to know who I really am. And I'm not pretending   I'm perfect. So that I can catch you and we can be married. Then you're obligated to me. How does that affect how you think about other girls when you see them? And what do you think about I see a pretty girl I think a girl, pretty girls pretty I'm not blind, do you when mean when you see a pretty girl What do you think? Do you think it's pretty girls pretty?

Yeah. Do you picture this do you picture just doing nasty stuff to that girl? No. Not usually. Cuz I'm not pretty enough. Doesn't have anything to do with you. I started doing this well before I even knew you existed. It has everything to do with the way that I manage my emotions. And I'm learning not to manage them through porn. Lots of people manage their emotions through high dopamine activities, food or video games or shopping, porn, or repeat, one of the ways that people do.

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Why didn't you tell me? Why are you telling me this now? Now that we're so, close? Why is why has it been so long? That you haven't told me this? Because now I feel she's been lying. To be honest, I was afraid. I was I was afraid. I was afraid to tell you because I was worried that you would reject me and reject who I've been. And you might, you might reject me. And I'm, I'm here, and I want to participate in this relationship. And if you choose to reject me and to move on, I understand. But I'm here.

Are you thinking about pornography when we're kissing and things like that? I'm not How can I trust you? You have to; you have to decide. You have to pay attention to who I'm being. You have a good sense of people, most people do. You're going to track my good behaviors and bad behaviors of me. And if you find that you're tracking bad behavior, I want you to talk to me about it. If you find it, you know, here's the thing. I don't I didn't have to tell you this. But I want to tell you who I really am. Not just so you'll trust me. But so I can be integrated. So I can be the same person with you that I am when I'm alone with myself. 

So you're gonna stop now? I'm not gonna promise you that I will solve this problem in a day. No Why can't you just stop, though? Yeah, that's a great question. Part of it is that this is the way that I've been coping with and dealing with my emotions through some really difficult times. And as I work through the skills that my coaches are teaching me and get better at them, I will look at pornography less and less until, one day, I will stop.

Yeah, thanks for telling me I need to think about it. Yeah. If she does, What if she breaks up with you? Is that a good sign or a bad sign? Probably a bad sign. No, it's a good sign. What a bad sign about her not being a bad sign about her. It's a good sign. You're, you're gonna save yourself years and years of anguish? Because that will give you an indication that she's not emotionally mature enough to deal with the reality of being married to another human. And let me give you tell you what I mean, if it wasn't pointed to be something else, or it makes sense. It makes sense what you're saying. Yeah, that makes sense.   my dad, my dad, and more ways, not just regarding drug use, the main thing the demise of their marriage was, honestly, it was dishonesty. Because he was managing how she felt about him. What she thought about him. Yeah. And yeah, what all of us thought about him, honestly, the drugs aren't the problem. Drugs really aren't the problem if your dad was a very good dude, and he was totally honest and upfront about how often he used drugs and why your entire relationship with him and your parent's relationship will be totally different. Probably, but differentiation, this idea of how willing Am I to be open and honest with another human and real with another human? That is more often the problem.

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Okay, so just real quick before we finish. So, differentiation. It's the ability to be confident in yourself solid  about who you are. You understand who you are. And to be able to share that with a significant other, be intimate with them about that. And unfold into their anxieties, trying to deal with their anxieties, not trusting that they won't be able to write. Just, okay, that's your anxiety. You have to deal with that. Because one thing I noticed about the little roleplay we do is you were, well, you have to decide that. Because you know, I can't do anything about that.

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