Episode 261

Hey everybody. Welcome to Thrive Beyond Pornography. I'm your host, Zach Spafford. I'm going to share an episode with you guys that it's a pretty old episode, but I think it's a really good episode. I've had a couple of conversations this week with clients where they're struggling, right? So, their spouse is very upset with them.

They are in a really tough place and the work that they need to do is not easy. And it's really frustrating to them. It's really scary to them. Uh, sometimes it's just so hard, like they just don't know how to do it. And I want to share this episode because I think it's an episode full of hope.

This episode came out a number of years ago now, after we had been on Jody Moore's podcast, and this episode really shares what I think is possible for every relationship. What is possible for everybody who goes and does this work. This episode shows that, especially from the perspective of the wife, the person who has to do a lot of the forgiving, the person who is in a lot of ways the party that is offended in these conversations.

My heart goes out to those wives, and I hope that you can see through this episode what is possible. So with that said, happy Labor Day this week. And I want to offer you this episode so that you can see what's possible. So that you can, together with your spouse, look forward to a future where you can solve anything together, especially this particular thing: putting pornography behind you for good and thriving beyond it. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you next week.

Zach Spafford: This is Zach Spafford here on the Self Mastery Podcast, and I have here today with me my lovely wife. Hello. How you doing? I'm good. Yeah. We had a pretty good week last week. Pretty good. We were on Jodi Moore's podcast.

That was kind of cool.

Darcy: I haven't listened to it though.

Zach Spafford: You're afraid to listen to it.

Darcy: Pretty much.

Zach Spafford: That's actually true. She's like, I can't listen to it. I can't, I can't listen to me say the things that I said when I said them. Yeah.

Darcy: I'll be honest, it's hard for me to listen to anything that we record, so.

Zach Spafford: Why? Are you embarrassed about your own voice?

Darcy: I don't know. There's just something about listening to yourself talk and also just going like, Oh, I totally just said that in front of thousands of people.

Zach Spafford: All these people are listening to me now, and now I'm gonna mess it up. Yeah, that's funny. It was interesting.

So, Friday morning I was listening to Jodi's, Podcast and Felicity and I were laying there and Felicity was snuggling in bed. And I'm listening to the podcast and at some point during the podcast I say, I, I was a terrible person or something like that. And Felicity's like, Papi, you're not a terrible person.

And I'm like, Aw.

Darcy: And Felicity's four.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, Felicity's four. So this wasn't like my 13 year old daughter, this was my 4 year old daughter, and I was like, yay! At least one person doesn't think I'm a terrible person.

Darcy: There might be two.

Zach Spafford: There might be two.

That's awesome. So this week we wanted to talk about something that was very much not The same as that high that you have when you have a very great week.

We wanted to talk about this moment in our marriage that I think is a real pivot point for us in terms of our healing and in terms of our growth and in terms of the reality that this is no longer this thing that really holds us down and beats us up on a regular basis. And I, I think a lot of this comes from the perspective of Darcy, but also from, from my perspective, and I think you're going to hear in this story, and I, and I hope we can do it justice here on the podcast, because this is, to us, it's a really important point in our lives.

And I hope, if you are somebody who's struggling with this, and this is something that you want to work on with someone, feel free to set up a consult. And as you go through this. If you want to watch this, podcast and listen to it, feel free to go to my website, set up a consult, download the roadmap that's on there, and prepare yourself to go ahead and make that investment in who you are so that you can grow past the difficulties that you've been having in your life when it comes to pornography use or any of the really difficult habits that you might be struggling to overcome.

Darcy: Today we're going to talk about the last time Zach started down the rabbit hole. Zach To give you an idea of what happened, it was really late at night, and I was in that state of mind, or I guess, not state of mind, state of sleep, where you're like asleep, but you can still hear things. I could hear that Zach was still up, and he was watching something on his phone, and I kind of dozed off to sleep.

All of a sudden, I was All I can say is that I swear the spirit just woke me up. And I opened my eyes, and I noticed that Zach was on his phone, and there was no sound, and he was kind of like fast [00:05:00] forwarding and rewinding and fast forwarding and like looking through a show trying to find. Like, I knew what was going on in my head.

I was like, Oh my gosh, he's totally looking for something inappropriate in this movie. I just kind of froze and my whole body got really hot and I just sat there. It was almost like a fight or flight scenario and I felt like my body just like froze. And then finally I said, what are you doing? And he's like, Oh, I'm just, you know, I can't sleep.

So then I'm like, I saw what you were doing. I've been awake. I've been watching you and you know, and I could see a screen There was nothing there was nothing there. There was nothing inappropriate that he saw but I knew what he was doing And so I asked him what's going on and he was actually honest And he what did you say?

Do you remember?

Zach Spafford: I think I said I'm really really stressed about work I'm really, really in my head. And this was like 2 a. m. So I had been up, I had been thinking about work, I had been stressed, I had been trying to not feel my feelings. So I was like watching shows on, on my phone. You know, at 2 a. m. I didn't feel like I could sleep, which is funny.

And then I also am like, just trying not to think about what I have to do the next day and all of the difficulties that I'm having with, with the work that I'm doing and how frustrating and scary. And you know, it was just, it was just that really hard time in my life at that moment. You know, Darcy asking me that question, I was just like, I just gotta tell you, this is what's going on.

Darcy: And this was the moment that I realized that I had made such a significant change in my mindset. It's funny because initially when I saw him doing that, and Even after I confronted him about it and he told me what's going on, my brain still wanted to offer me things like, I can't believe he did that, how dare he do that with me standing, or laying in bed next to him, and I'm right here, and I just felt myself wanting to get angry, but then I was like, no.

This is not about me. This has nothing to do with me. This is about Zach and what's going on for him. And I really, you know, it's crazy because I said to him, What is going on? And he's like, I swear you have a sixth sense. He's like, I don't know how it is that you know if I'm, if I'm potentially up to no good.

And, so yeah, that's, it's my superpower apparently.

Zach Spafford: That's her superpower, but that's not exactly, I wouldn't. I wouldn't rely on that superpower.

Darcy: Yes, there's plenty of times that my superpower did not save you from

Zach Spafford: But I think in this particular instance, when, you know, you've got this prompting to wake up, you wake up and you see this, and then you see that you can not only help me deal with my feelings and what's going on in my head.

And, you know, I think a lot of times, and we've talked about this where we have been in this place a number of times where I'm saying, I'm scared and I'm frustrated and I'm worried. And I have all these, And I've seen this with clients that I've coached. I've seen it with the wives of clients that I've coached where wives don't want their husbands to have feelings.

Wives, a lot of times want their husbands to have everything under control and for them to be the even keeled one and never have the stress and the frustration and the worry. And the wives want to take that all for themselves. And in this moment, rather than do that and say, you know, this is about me and I'm the only one who's supposed to be frustrated or stressed or whatever.

You came at it and you said, well, how can I think about Zach?

Darcy: Yeah And I think partly because I had never seen him start down the rabbit hole, right? Any other time that I had found out that you had looked at pornography was either you told me or like I found it on your computer or I found it on your phone.

Being there like A fly on the wall watching it happen. I really was able to look at it for what it was. It was really sad and pathetic.

Zach Spafford: Thank you for that.

Darcy: You know, like in my mind I just imagined it so differently than the reality and the reality was it was this desperate sad man who was just looking for anything to feel better in that moment.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, in that moment, I was just trying not to feel what I was feeling. I was trying not to feel, I look back on it, I was trying not to feel stressed. I was trying not to feel tired, which is funny because, you know, 2am you should feel tired, right?

But when you don't want to feel tired and you don't want to feel stressed and you don't, we deny our feelings all the time. As humans, we do that as a, almost as a matter of course, in a lot of ways. In fact, our entire society is built around denying our feelings in a lot of ways. Like for men, it's like, Hey, you know, be tough, pull yourself up by your bootstraps and, you know, be a man, right?

And for women, it's [00:10:00] don't love your body. Don't love who you are. Don't love what's going on. Always look. Who you are and seek for some sort of external approval. So there's never been, I don't think in our society, in, in, in American society, anyway, this idea of like, Oh, you're feeling upset. Okay. Well, what's going on with that?

Why are you that way? Is there something deeper that we can look at or is it just, you just need to feel upset for a minute? Having that opportunity with you and really this was, for me this was a really great moment because it was you giving me permission to feel my feelings, which is so weird.

Darcy: And it wasn't easy for me because I was, you know, I want you to be that strong man.

I don't want to see you in your moment of weakness. It, it was hard. It was, it was really hard for me. In my head a little bit, I wanted to pull away. Like I wanted to, you know, roll over to the other side of the bed and just separate. Cause in the past, that was, you know, What I would have done and well, I would have gone off the handle like I would have gone crazy.

Zach Spafford: Um, tell them what you would have done. Tell them all this. Tell them.

Darcy: I totally would have screamed at him. said horrible things about him. There would have been crying, lots of crying. Yeah, lots of crying, a lot of crying, and just a lot of anger and resentment, and hatred. How could you do this to me? And yeah, I just, I really took it so personally.

So this was a really great moment for me because I realized that I could be who I wanted to be in that moment, right? I could be

Zach Spafford: Who did you want to be in that moment?

Darcy: I wanted to be somebody that I could understand that you have feelings and that you have weaknesses and that you have struggles just like I do, right?

Just like, you know, I suffer with depression some days and if I come to you and I'm like, I'm really struggling this day I need help with XYZ or whatever.

Zach Spafford: You expect me to give you the space to feel your feelings?

Darcy: Yeah, and I also expect you to help out and allow for my moment of weakness, right? I mean, Yeah, oh yeah.

Zach Spafford: What's interesting I think about marriage is that we come to marriage showing ourselves in our best light, right? As a young man, I'm coming to marriage and I'm showing how amazing I am, and as a young woman. You're coming to marriage and you're showing how amazing you are. But the real traction in marriage I think happens when we recognize that our partner has weaknesses and we don't hold those weaknesses against them.

That to me has been one of the most eye opening experiences of our marriage is And this is, I think, just one of the many great examples of that, where it's not just, Zach has a problem where he uses pornography to stop feeling his feelings, but that's his most, I think, significant weakness, and I'm not going to hold that against him.

And in this moment, you didn't hold it against me. Yeah. For which I'm grateful.

Darcy: Yeah, and it is just the next morning we talked about it, you know, and I remember Zach saying, It was so weird for me that you You still wanted to be close to me after that moment.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, that was weird.

Darcy: That, that you didn't, like, pull away or, like, go to the couch or Go to the other side.

Zach Spafford: Like, we have a king bed. It's not like you have to be next to each other. There's plenty of room.

Darcy: Well, typically, there's, like, three kids between us.

Zach Spafford: There's the possibility that you could have, like, literally just scooted far away and you didn't do that. And that was, to me, that was this Really, I don't know if it's weird, but it just was a totally, it created a totally different reality in that moment.

And it wasn't a forced closeness, it was a closeness of, I'm not bothered by you in the way that I was in the past because of this. It wasn't that you were like, I'm gonna stay here because I'm That's what I am trying to do so that I can show up and be in this forced space. You were totally relaxed. You were totally comfortable.

Darcy: Well, and, and, and really, I just, I really did want to connect with you because You were vulnerable in that moment and told me what you were struggling with. And I feel like in the past, you would try to kind of push it off. You know, you wouldn't really open up about what was going on for you, right?

Because in the beginning of your journey, you weren't very open about what you were struggling with. I didn't think I could be. Yeah, and I totally understand. I would go crazy. Hey, yeah,

Zach Spafford: I mean, I'm not saying that's your fault. I'm just saying it's really hard for me if I think it's hard for anyone. So I had a coaching client and we were talking about his son.

They had just gotten back from like this three week vacation and of course being the great provider that this man is. He had provided a really amazing experience for his kids to go on this vacation. And then his son's like acting out after returning from the vacation. And he's like, Hey, knock it off.

You, you shouldn't act like that. You, you know, [00:15:00] you are acting like this when didn't we just have this great time and didn't I provide all this for you? And. And that was a really sharp example of how sometimes we want people to come to us when they're not feeling good. Like this son, he was feeling the low of coming back from a vacation.

Your emotions, they ebb and they flow and, you know, when you spend a lot of time doing really cool things, your emotions are high and they're great and it's interesting and it's fun to be on vacation. And then you get home and you're bored and so you act out, right? Well, his son comes to him and is like, I'm upset and I'm not happy and I'm bored and all of this.

And. Of course, instead of saying, oh, yeah, that's, that's totally normal and it's good to feel those feelings and all of that, my client was like, oh, you know, you should be grateful and this and that. And that's, we don't let people do that. We don't. And that was this same thing that you were doing for me, where you were like, letting me have this emotion that you really wouldn't have let me have before.

Darcy: And Because I would, I really would have made it all about me back then. It would have been.

Zach Spafford: I think the very beginning of our marriage was definitely all about you.

Darcy: Yeah, probably.

Zach Spafford: All of the things were all about you. Where do you want to eat? Oh, here. I don't want to eat there.

Darcy: Don't lie, I still pick where we go.

Zach Spafford: That's true. All the time. But this, this moment was So different than the previous moment and for you, why was it such a beautiful moment?

Darcy: I really think it was because I realized how far we had come, you know? Like it was that time when I was like, whoa, we really have come to the other side of the mountain.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. For me, it was, it's really given me permission to be much more vulnerable. It's given me permission to not think of myself as a terrible person, which, you know, when Felicity said, you're not a terrible person, that was great. But if you really want to have self confidence, not thinking of yourself as a terrible person, because you have this one vice, this one problem, this one difficulty that really just stems from trying to cover up your emotions and it, you know, creates a habit within your brain.

Believing you're not a terrible person is a pretty key component there. For sure.

Darcy: Yeah. And I think when I, I, I am open with several of my friends, and so when I told my best about this,

Zach Spafford: what do you mean you're open with several of your friends? There are like 400, 500 people listening to this right now, as as I speak.

And you're open with.

Darcy: I, well, let's, yes, but back in that moment when this was going on and I opened up to my bestie and I was telling her about it. We both kind of got emotional because it was this pivotal moment of realizing how far we had come. Yeah. Because my friend has been there through all of it.

I do one day want to bring her on the podcast and interview her about how she has been there. I think that would be really cool. Yeah, that would be cool.

Zach Spafford: So I think there's a couple of really important key points. Number one is, just because you have emotions, that's not permission to use pornography. So if that's a problem that you're dealing with, because your spouse is kind of giving you that space to feel your feelings.

And even to use pornography, that doesn't mean that's permission. That really means this is an understanding that you have, and there's love still there, and there's still a willingness to learn and grow and build a relationship. And that when you do choose to use pornography, if that's something that you ever go back to, that you're We're able to have that conversation in a way that is growth promoting.

And this was one of those conversations, this was one of those moments that was growth promoting for us. And I think

Darcy: And connecting.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, absolutely. And I love connecting with you. You guys should see the look on her face right now. But I think the other part of that is, so that's, I think on the one side, and then on the other side, for the wives.

You've got to remember this is not, this is not really about you. And it's not that we don't want it to be about you, but we men, we also have feelings. And in those moments when we are having those feelings, and I think this is going to be, for some of you, it's going to be a pretty tough slog, right? Like, you're going to have to go and you're going to have to deal with your own emotions about this type of scenario.

And then, You're gonna have to show to your husband that you can handle this type of scenario with him. And I don't think that, that did not happen overnight for us. Absolutely did not happen overnight for us.

Darcy: Yeah, it was years.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, and, and, and that's what you've got to understand. So those two key components, you know, knowing that your spouse has feelings and that they're going to try and suppress those feelings in some way at some moment, not because they're trying to hurt you, but because they don't like how that feels, And being willing to allow that to occur.

That's huge. I think. [00:20:00]

Darcy: This is no way us telling you how you should respond, right? This isn't a should, a should on you, right? Right.

Zach Spafford: We do not should on anyone. There's no shoulding in this podcast.

Darcy: But it is just an example of our growth and how we have progressed. And how things have changed for us.

Zach Spafford: So dramatically because of the principles that we Coach people on.

This is not, this is not like some random thing that no one else can do. Like, there are tools that will help you do this.

Darcy: For sure. So I just want to wrap up this podcast and let you guys all know that Zach is turning 40 in 10 days. And so I was thinking it would be way cool if for his 40th birthday that we could get to 100 reviews.

On Apple podcasts. Are we at 40 yet? I think we're at 39. So you could be my 40th review. Okay, do this. Review us and then send me an Instagram message. So zachspafford. theselfmasterycoach. That's my Instagram handle. Or you could send it to Darcy. Darcy. spafford is her Instagram handle. So like do your review, take a picture of it and send it to us.

And then, on Zach's birthday, if we can get to a hundred, we will draw When we get to a hundred. When. I'm counting on these people. Okay, we're counting on you. Then, we will randomly pick a winner to get a free spot in the group coaching that will start on September 30th, I believe. Oh, that's perfect. So, Zach didn't know I was gonna say this.

This is all

Zach Spafford: She just literally gave away work. She's like, let me give some work away. Boom. There you go.

Darcy: That's for your birthday. Oh Happy birthday!

Zach Spafford: For my birthday, I get to work. That's awesome. I love it. Perfect.

Darcy: Well, you get to help someone.

Zach Spafford: I do get to help someone. So, so you didn't give away work. You gave away free help.

You gave away help. I gave away free help this morning. I like, made some cabinets for some lady and, you know, built a ramp for someone who needed a wheelchair ramp.

Darcy: You were all about service today.

Zach Spafford: We're all about service today.

Darcy: You were. Well, I was not. I was home with the kids. You were serving. Trying not to be.

Upset. A little bit bitter that you worked on all Saturday.

Zach Spafford: Well, thanks everybody for listening. This has been awesome. I always enjoy doing these with Darcy, especially with Darcy, because I think she brings such a beautiful context to all the work that I had done and all of the work that anyone who's, you know, dealing with an unwanted habit could do, that context really does come in handy when it comes to the spouse learning the tools and the information that I teach so that, you know, you can stop doing the things that you don't want to be doing.

That's why we call this the Self Mastery Podcast. It's not just about pornography, it's about you. There's lots of habits that lots of people have. These are the same principles that you can use. I mean, if pornography is, I think a lot of people think of it as like a terrible, terrible thing and one of the most difficult things to stop doing.

If that you think is the worst thing that you could possibly be doing, it's something that's stoppable, then every habit fits into that category. Every unwanted habit fits into that category. So thanks for listening. We'll talk to you guys next week. Have a good week. Bye.