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Episode 230

Zach Spafford: Hey everybody and welcome to Thrive Beyond Pornography. I'm your host, Zach Spafford, and today I have with me some special guests, Nathan and Carly. Hey guys, how are you doing?

Carly: Doing great.

Nate: Awesome. Happy to be here.

Zach Spafford: Oh, I'm so glad. I love talking to people when they've gone through this journey and they're putting themselves into a place where it's like, "Hey, we're, we're on the path. We're thriving. We're in a great place." So I'm looking forward to this conversation with you guys, but why don't you guys start by introducing yourselves?

Nate: Ladies first. Come on, babe.

Carly: Well, I'm Carly. Um, I'm a stay at home mom to three littles.

I have a five year old, a three year old, and a one year old. So it's a circus. But, yeah, we live here in St. George and we're loving it. And we're both very musical people. We love music and Yeah, no,

Zach Spafford: I've been married. I did not know that about you guys.

Nate: Really? Yeah, no, we're super, like, she does guitar, I do drums, we both do guitar, some piano,

Carly: I mean.

Nate's really the

Nate: talented one. No, she's way more talented than me, she's shy about it, so. I love it. But yeah, I mean, seven years into marriage, I mean, you know, it's, it doesn't seem that way, but you know, seven years and five houses and three kids, um, I'm 31 now, I do commercial lighting for a living.

And I mean, I don't know. There's not a whole lot that exciting about us. We've moved a lot, all over Utah, then out to Oklahoma for a year. And now back to Utah and probably here to stay. So

Zach Spafford: that's awesome. Yeah. We love having you guys here in town. we didn't, know each other. Locally for most of the time we've known each other and now you're here locally.

So it's great to get to be able to see it. It's funny how it worked

Nate: out. I think I was in Logan and you were still in Wisconsin when I first found your stuff. So it was kind of crazy, small world.

Zach Spafford: It really is a small world. So, uh, we had lunch yesterday at a great place here in town called Pork Bellies.

So if you, if you're ever in St. George, we'll go to lunch. It was good.

Nate: I give it a gold star if he invites you to Pork Bellies.

Zach Spafford: Nate was saying yesterday, Carly, that you had been to Pork Belly's. Is

Nate: that true? I haven't been, but yeah, because she always talks about it. So, whenever she's like this, I've heard this is a good place.

So, I thought she'd been, but she said she hadn't. So, we're gonna have to go.

Carly: Yeah, I don't go out to dinner. I don't go out to lunch.

Zach Spafford: Next time, just bring your kids here. Drop them off. We'll all go to Pork Belly's. There we go, there we go. Awesome.

So let's start with Where were you guys before you found the work that Darcy and I do?

Before you found Thrive Beyond Pornography.

Nate: Yeah, yeah, I think I could paint a pretty good picture and maybe, I mean, jump in here. But I mean, we had been married three years, maybe? Two or three years? Yeah. Probably two or three years we've been married. I mean, I had been Struggling on and off with porn my whole life since I was 12, you know, been through bishops, 12 steps, all the things, right?

I mean, uh, just like you have in your life, Zach, and of course, everybody thinks when I go on a mission, it'll get better. When I get married, it'll get better. And yeah, we got married. It was better for like six months to a year, and then it's still an issue. And you know, where we were before we found you was We had been in this path for probably a year or two, where I mess up, she like, completely flips out, like, Earth's gonna end, go sleep at your brother's house.

I feel like in the pit of shame, like, hate myself. So, so, like, such a huge thing, any time there was a slip up, and that made me white knuckle it really hard. But no matter how many meetings I went to, stuff I did, I didn't have any tools. I mean, that's really what it came down to. I had no tools to really know how to change.

So it didn't matter how bad I wanted it and how bad she wanted it for me. And she was, you know, like you talk about in your stuff, she was trying to control the phone and the stuff. She had the passwords. I mean, all the aspects of control she could have, you know, to keep me from it. And it came from a place that she felt like I was blaming her.

Even though I wasn't trying to. Now I'm blaming her because, well, I still found it.

Carly: Um. Your passwords weren't strong enough. Like. And we'd gotten

Nate: kind of past that when I found you to the point where she was just done. Like, she was just, no. She's like, you know what? It's your problem. You deal with it. And that's kind of where we were right before we found you was, was still not a good place, but just, uh, I don't care anymore.

Do what you're going to do. Well,

Carly: and I would have, like, severe panic attacks too. Like. Like, hyperventilating. Like, it was intense. I don't know why that was my reaction, but it just, like, the betrayal just felt, like, so hard. And, like, he had been honest with me when, probably our third date, he's like, hey, I've struggled with pornography.

And so I was like, okay, if you can be honest about this, then, I can work with that. You know, it's not like this secrecy, but it did, he did kind of struggle with that where it became this secrecy because I would react so poorly.

Nate: So even though I was always honest, it became really hard to be honest because when you know there's going to be this like nuclear explosion on the back side of honesty.

Really tough, really

Zach Spafford: tough. Yeah. And I think that that's a really good observation of a lot of times the dynamic that people create within their relationship, that's not to say that, you know, your choices and your honesty are in any way. Carly's responsibility, but it's a really good acknowledge on your side Carly, of "I was not helping this scenario by utilizing all of these hysterical responses to his choices."

Carly: Right.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's, that's, so how did it work to control him for you, Carly?

Carly: Not good. I mean, you can't, you can't control Nate in anything. He does what he wants to do when he wants to do it. Like, that's just his personality. But yeah, I mean, we did passwords. I was like, okay, well, let's just, you can't be on Facebook.

and he got resentful because it was like, he was like, I feel like you're my mom, like you're babysitting me. And that's just not good for a marriage to feel like you can't be trusted. So it didn't work out that well. And that's why eventually I was like, you know what? I just, you're just going to do what you're going to do and I'm not going to worry about it.

Zach Spafford: Nice. Tell us, how did you find me? Because I think, you told me, like, if I remember this correctly, you're like, I pretty much found you the day you launched your podcast, if I remember correctly.

Nate: This is like freaking divine intervention, like, I I very much believe the hand of God was in it because I had just messed up.

I I'm a big fisherman. And so I would drive out, we were living in cash value at the time. You know, I would drive out to Newton reservoir. I would drive out to Condi out in Idaho. Like I was always driving somewhere. I just messed up from what I recall. She was pissed. So like, I don't want to go home, you know, and so I'm just going for a drive and I wasn't even going to fish that day, I'm just going for a drive and I kind of went out around the lake and I remember right where I was because I was like over there around the lake and I parked, I was looking for like, man, I just need something like I need some other.

Like, I don't even know what I was looking for, but I need some other tool. Like, this isn't working. I'm trying everything. And so I was literally like on Spotify, like searching, like for podcasts on pornography and like, I can't find anything, can't find anything. And then yours is like one of the only things that pops up, but it was like episode one, I was like, what are the freaking chances?

And so I listened to it and I was like, man, this is really cool. And I think you only had the one episode at a time. It was literally like the

Zach Spafford: first episode. I think I launched five episodes that very first launch.

Nate: Yeah. May you've done the group

Zach Spafford: mid-October 2019 is what it would've been. Yeah.

Nate: Yeah. Years ago.

But I mean, I, I was so blown away by it. I was like, I have to like get to know this guy. I was doing marketing consulting at the time. I was like, I have to message Zach, like see what he is up to. I just like, immediately was like, I wanna help this guy's message. Get out. Like, this is amazing. And I mean, that just kind of started our relationship from there.

I was super surprised you responded. I thought you were so cool . You know, I was like, oh my gosh, you responded to me.

Zach Spafford: I will still respond to people. People message me all the time and I'm just like, yeah, sure. Uh, every once in a while we'll go to Costco and people will be like, are you? And, and it'll freak my wife out.

Darcy, she'll freak out and be like, yeah, that's us. You want to talk about porn right here at Costco? Let's do it. Uh, no big deal. I'm, I'm fine with it. I always tell people like there's nothing I could say to you in person that I would be embarrassed about because I talk about porn on the internet for a living like all day, right?

And that was a really cool experience for me because I was like, uh, people are hearing this. Yeah, and we were not famous at all. We're still not famous, but So it was really neat to hear you like resonate with the message. What really did resonate with you?

Nate: You know, I can't even tell you specifically like what hit me I just I think You having your story, like someone who's been through this, and then coming and saying, hey, the stuff that you're trying, there's a reason it's not working.

Like, there's a reason the 12 step doesn't work. There's a reason meeting with the bishop every week of your life isn't working. Like, it's not your fault. You need some tools. Like, I think for me at the time, I, I just like was beating myself up because I've been trying this for like 15 years or something at the time.

It's like, what else can I do? And to be told, like, it's not your fault. Like those programs don't work. They don't know how to help you. And I think that's where I just really started to zone in like, okay, what tools does he have that I need to know then? Because I want something different. And I definitely wanted something different at the time.

Yeah,

Zach Spafford: beautiful. Carly, what did you think when he was like, hey, let me share this with you?

Carly: Well, I mean, I was, I was skeptical because like at that point, it was like we had tried everything, you know, I was like, I feel like this is just something we're going to struggle with forever. But I remember him coming to me like after he found your podcast and he's like, I found this guy and like, I've never like resonated with something like this before.

And so I was like, okay, like, that's interesting that he's like paying attention to this thing that's, you know, different. It's not addiction recovery. It's not, um, you know, something that's going to make you feel shameful. It's Okay, we're going to talk about this for what it is, and that's kind of, I don't know, where I was like, yeah, you need to, like, get more into this.

You need to, you need to, like, discover this and, and see how it helps

Nate: you. Well, the more into it we got, she was, like, driving it. She's like, dude, you need to talk to Zach. You got to do his thing. You got to, like, like, the more we got into it, the more she listened to it. Trying to control it. Yeah, she was like, come on, go, go do that thing, you know, so.

Listen to the

Zach Spafford: podcast. Yeah. Like, you know. That's awesome. I, I really appreciate that. I appreciate you guys doing that work together because that's really where the rubber meets the road for almost every individual who's dealing with pornography, there's almost always somebody that he's working with. Or she's working with on the other side that's like, I don't understand why you're doing this, and I don't know how to help you.

So having you, Carly, to be there for him and not just beat him up. That was invaluable in the process as we went through it, because I remember you came to group, so we did a, A group coaching, which, so we have within the framework, if you're listening for the first time, we have couples coaching, which is a individualized coaching sessions for couples.

And we do that for a year. And then we have an individual coaching and then we do the membership. And then once a year we do. Group coaching. We only do it at the beginning of the year. In fact, we've got a class going right now and you came to that and you were like, let's get this done. So what shifted for you as you started to do the work?

I'm going to start with you, Nate. And then I want to hear Carly, what happened for you because. There are big shifts on both sides of the street.

Nate: Yeah, there were. And it was really important that it was on both sides, I will say. And I have to say, this is not a shameless plug for Zach or his work.

Zach Spafford: Shamelessly plug me, please.

Nate: I have been listening to your stuff for probably at least a year and a half, two years. Before I did any kind of group or went through like and you and I had talked, you know I was helping you with some of the marketing sites like I felt like I was very involved with you I was well aware of a lot of tools you taught but I hadn't done like the work, right?

We're like I really sat down and like hey, I'm gonna apply these tools. I was Consciously trying to I was listening to the podcast. I was learning them and that was working I was getting better and my mindset was changing. It's like that was already well underway but for me When we, when I got in, I started doing the group and I started working with you, it just, it kind of forced me to be in that scenario where I'm like, well, I'm kind of accountable for one, you know, to Zach and to these other guys, but also just like, I'm here, I'm putting this in, I want to do something about it, you know, like, let's really I felt like I'd been aware of all these things.

I'm like, I need to start using them. I need to like put time and effort into this. Um, but but like to be honest with you at that point I think more of the change needed to happen with her than with me. Like I could not progress any further until Something changed on her side. I was kind of like at a roadblock for me.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, that's that's not uncommon partly because It's helpful to have somebody on your side. And I think what you're saying about coming to the group and doing the work is different than listening to the podcast is really that sometimes you need someone who can dial in on exactly what's happening for you.

Whereas you listen to the podcast and it's, it's theoretical to a degree. It's the information that you need, but you're not really working to apply it.

Nate: Yeah, when we sit and have a discussion and, you know, I'm sipping my Mountain Dew and you're like, Hey, let's talk about your Mountain Dew. Let's talk about your Mountain Dew.

Why do we drink Mountain Dew? Yeah. And, you know, funny thing is, of course, I told you yesterday, I've been off soda for more than a year now. Yeah. Literally, the only reason I did that was because I started getting annoyed by how often my brain was offering me this, which is part of what I went through group, what Zach helped me identify.

He's like, well, why do you want it? I'm like, I don't know. I don't even want it. My brain just says, go get one. So I do. You know? I guess. Uh, it, it, that was for me definitely a time where I started to look in my own brain and be like, okay, why is my brain offering me this? What is that coming from? Um, okay, well, my brain says to do this.

Why does it want me to do that? Like, what am I feeling right now? You just start to dig into the reason why your lower brain is offering you different things.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. And once you start to see the patterns, you can address them more fully. But sometimes it's, it's really helpful to have somebody else point them out to you.

As we say in coaching, it's very difficult to read the label from inside the bottle. And that's really a lot of what goes on in those conversations. It's not so much I'm like standing up there and going, okay, don't look at porn. Cause I like, if you look at porn, that's up to you.

That's not up to me. What we're doing is we're digging into not just. What's going on when I'm looking at porn, but why is my brain offering me porn? What is it that I'm trying to avoid? And how can I discover that to the point where I can address it meaningfully? And, and we use all kinds of things like Mountain Dew as a proxy for that, which is phenomenal.

And then I want to go back to talking about Carly getting on board and doing the work on her side of the street. Cause I think that's a really important part of this whole thing that it's not. I can't progress without my partner. It's really, if you want your partner to succeed, and if you want to succeed, having your partner on board makes it so much easier, so much faster, so much more effective.

So Carly, what shifted for you as you went through this process?

Carly: So really when it shifted, it was, we had just sold our house. We weren't able to move into our new house yet. This was the height of COVID. It was summer of 2020. We were living in my dad's unfinished basement. I had a super colicky newborn.

Um, and I was like deep in postpartum depression and anxiety, like really, really bad. Um, and I remember Nate being like, Hey, Zach and Darcy are doing a call, like a call with the wives and stuff. Um, cause I was going through a group at the time. He's going through the group at the time. And I was like, like, this is not, this is not something I want to deal with right now, but whatever, like I'll go and do it.

And. So we, we got talking, and I can't remember exactly the question that Darcy asked me, but I just remember telling her, like, I am just so annoyed that he is going and looking at all of these disgusting women before, like, showing me love. You know, because I was in such a bad place. I was like, he's just going, I just remember being like these disgusting women.

Like he's choosing to look at them over loving me. And Darcy like just stopped for a minute. And she was like, do you really believe that? And I was like. What do you mean? Like, why would you, why would you say that? Like, I'm so emotional right now.

Zach Spafford: The narrative is, these women are disgusting, and I need love.

That's the narrative. Yeah,

Carly: I'm like, what, what do you mean? You know, I was so, I was a little, like, caught off guard. Like, do I really believe that? And I, I had to, like, think about it. Like, does my husband, who I love, and I know loves me, does he really want to look at porn above showing his wife love? And the answer was no.

Like, I do not believe that. And there was just like this mind shift where I was like, oh, this isn't about me. Like, this is not about me. This is about him. This is about how he copes with stress, because it was really such a stressful situation at the time, and it, I don't know, it was something about how she, how she worded it and how blunt she was, that I was like, no, like, I don't believe any of these narratives or what I'm making it mean in my head.

I don't believe that. That's not what's

Zach Spafford: going on. Yeah, I, Darcy has a very An extraordinary talent for being incisive. She's just like right to the heart of it. Yeah. She really is good at that. Um, why was that so helpful to you? Like, what is it about this sort of thing? Like this shift that shifted things in your relationship?

Carly: I think I had just been putting so much, like, so many preventative measures in place of, like, okay, like, I know he struggles with this, like, to the point where it would just, it would stress me out all the time. So I feel like I'm preventing this

Zach Spafford: situation from happening. So you're constantly thinking about porn.

You're constantly thinking about how he's thinking about porn. He's constantly thinking about porn. And

Carly: how that's affecting us. And it just It just got to be so exhausting that I was just, I was at a place, before I had talked to Darcy, I was just like, whatever, Nate. Like, do what you're gonna do. And that was harmful because it, it wasn't solving the problem.

It was just avoiding the problem. And so, you know, I think it was helpful to me because it, it took that responsibility off my shoulders of like, this is not your problem. This is his problem, but you are able to support and love him through it. I love that.

Zach Spafford: Okay. I think

Nate: for me it was like I needed license to be able to fail.

Like, one of the things you talk about, Zach. Oh my gosh, yes. You can't give yourself permission to look at pornography, then you can't choose not to look at pornography. Like, I felt like I could not choose to look at pornography without serious consequences, which meant I could never progress. Like, I could never do it of my own accord.

And like, after that breakthrough for her, Now she gets it. Now my wife doesn't think I'm this terrible person. You know, it's like my wife thinks of me as how I want her to think of me and she, she's willing to give me that license to fail and work through it. And like, that was a hard conversation we had to have after that.

But that was the breakthrough that allowed me to be like, Carly, if I'm employing these tools, I'm probably going to screw up. And I'm actually probably going to screw up more than I have in the past because I'm going to have to actively deal with this and not avoid it. And she's like, well, no, I'm like, no, I am.

And it was that way for a while. You know, like if you're going to really use the tools, you're going to have to choose to put yourself in those situations and learn to use the tools, you know? So that was a huge shifting point for both of us. Yeah.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, and I think it's interesting a lot of people We have one bad review on our podcast.

And it's this guy, someone who wrote, I was in this for 10 minutes. And this guy, they're telling people that they can, the addict, that they can do whatever they want. No wonder people love it. And I'm like, but you can do whatever you want. Cause you're a grownup, right? And once you, yeah, once you fully embrace.

That agency, and I'm not advocating anybody choose pornography. What I'm advocating is that we fully own our choices instead of living in this victim mentality. And you guys described it pretty perfectly. Like Carly, you're over here and you're like a victim of all of his choices and everything that he does impacts you.

And then you decide, Oh wait, this really isn't about me. It's actually about him. And he's over here and he's a victim because he's like, I can't. And if I fail, Carly's going to lose it. So we create this vicious, terrible cycle of how, I just don't think, I mean, if you, if you think about the atonement, it's literally there, we were talking about this yesterday, weren't we, Nate, how like the atonement literally, like the plan was you were going to make mistakes.

That's the plan. Everything else. Is a part of that and that's what the Atonement's for. It's for this process of you taking the time to go through and become a better version of yourself by fully embracing your choices and then recognizing their impact and choosing differently as you go along knowing that it's paid for Because those mistakes need to be paid for somehow and I think that that's a huge benefit to to anybody who's walking this path It's like you don't have to beat yourself up But if you're willing to do the work, you'll start to see things more clearly, and you'll start to be able to choose because it's what you want, not because it's what you're supposed to do.

I think that's a big difference. 100%. Yep. Um, tell me how things, so it's been a couple of years, right? You went through group, you've been working on this. I know it's not all been roses and sunshine. Tell me what that journey was like.

Nate: Yeah, you know. One of the things I appreciated in the beginning with you is that you don't paint any unrealistic pictures of like, yeah, you're going to be porn free in 90 days and you'll be healed forever.

Maybe some people are that way. Like, good for you. Like seriously. I've

Zach Spafford: had clients who come in and they're like three meetings in there. Like I got everything I needed. Now I can see myself more clearly. I don't need this anymore. Yeah. And some, some people, like I've got a guy. I've been working with him for three years, major shifts in his life, but every once in a while there's still things that come up.

Nate: Yeah, and I'm a big proponent that major brain rewiring, it takes time. Like, I spent 20 years wiring my brain to offer me porn every time I feel uncomfortable, or tired, or stressed, or any of these things. And so my brain, those are a lot of deep rooted paths that you just, you have to change your thinking around every single one of them.

And so that's kind of been the last several years. Since we've been in group, um, you know, I still listen to your stuff on and off. I still, you know, stay involved, but most of it is just every time I'm in a situation, just using those tools. Like, and there's times that I've had to slip up where it's like, well, I didn't even use the tools.

And so that was dumb. You know, I, I know I slipped up cause I didn't do X, Y, Z, like, and I always evaluate it. Like, honestly, at this point, it's like 99 percent of the situations. That were big triggers for me, or the emotions that were big triggers for me. I can have those now and be totally alone in a place where I could easily look at porn.

And I'm like, yeah, but that's not what I want. Like, yeah, my brain's offering me this and I could do that, but that's really, really not what I wanna do. And you know, it's a lot how you tell your stories. I guess. That progression of like, Hey, yeah, I can look at porn and I might choose to. Like, that's really where I started, was like, yeah, I might choose to look at porn, and that's okay.

And like, giving myself that license, and then it slowly has progressed to, I do feel like, it gets that point of, yeah, I can, but I, I choose not to. Like, I don't want to. It's kind of where I come from most of the time. And there's still those rare instances where I'm like, man, I can choose to look at porn if I want to, and I really want to.

You know? And I still get my self license today, that that's okay, if I'm still going through that, but, you know, it's been 99 percent of like most of those situations, I've been able to practice enough over the last three years to get to where, okay, that no longer is a trigger for me, like, if I'm home alone, because I work from home, and she goes off with the kids, and I'm alone in the house for hours.

It's like not a big deal like who cares I'm here I'm working like I don't like those kind of things that used to set me off a ton just don't anymore But it took like literally years of just being in those situations Observing my thoughts observing my behaviors like thinking through why do I want that?

Do I want that? I don't know. It just takes time, but it's it's been a good journey, you know, yeah,

Carly: you like It kind of shifted because he doesn't, he would focus so much on avoiding a behavior, whether that was porn, or soda, or like just feeling bad in general. He just doesn't like to feel bad. He still doesn't like to feel bad.

But it went from avoiding to owning it. Yeah. Oh, it's like, okay, I can get a whole box of cookies and eat the whole box of cookies. I'm buffering and I'm okay with that because I'm making a decision instead of I'm avoiding this emotion, it's, I'm owning this emotion.

Nate: Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. It's funny how aware you become of when you're buffering something in away.

Like there are times I'll tell her like, yes, this is a buffer and I'm okay with this buffer , I'm choosing. Yeah. And I'm gonna have it. Um, and then , well

Zach Spafford: that, I mean, we're not taking everything out of our lives. We can't just get rid of everything that's entertaining or valuable or that has helped us.

Nate: Well, like food is still a big one for me, right?

Like, we've been emotional eaters our whole lives. Both of us. This whole program has helped a ton with that, too. But I'm more cognizant of it now. Like, we've been on our health journey. You know, I've lost, like, 65 pounds in the last year. She's lost, like, what? I mean, we've been doing this health journey too, and this all applies to that 100 percent too, because when you're emotionally buffering away your feelings with food, that doesn't really help your body either.

So like, it's applied to all of that. And yeah, there are still times I'm like, you know what, like yesterday I got some crumble cookies. I'm like, man, I'm gonna have me this treat, and I'm 100 percent okay with it. Today, I'm not going to do it every day of the week, but I'm okay with this today because I know why I'm having it, and I'm not trying to avoid something, I just want a treat, and that's okay, you know?

Zach Spafford: Yeah, and I think lowering the temperature on the conversation from, this is the end of the world, which is kind of how you saw it, Carly, to, this is something that we're using to manage our emotions in a moment. And if I don't want to use this anymore, that's possible and I need, and I need to do the work to get to that place if that's what I want out of my life.

And I think that's a huge difference. Carly, tell me about, as you're seeing his journey in these last couple of years after doing the work, after some of those shifts in your mind, what are you seeing on your, for him, and also on your side of the street? Because I know a lot of these things that he's learning, you're learning and doing as well.

Carly: Yeah, I mean, like Nate said, I think it bleeds into every aspect of your life, just how, how powerful accountability is, um, because I, I mean, I don't think the church purposely teaches this, but a lot of, a lot of the programs with, um, addiction or, or things that people

Zach Spafford: struggle with. That was air quotes addiction, by the way.

It's, you gotta, you gotta spell it out for, uh, yeah, I

Carly: know. People can't see me, but, um, a lot of those programs, they're kind of inadvertently, like, shaming people, you know, and that's not what the Savior's Atonement is about. Right. You know, there's, there's godly guilt. Which is, it brings you, it brings you to God.

It brings you to Christ. But shame is saying, you know, I'm a bad person. It's not, I did a bad thing. It's I'm a bad person. And I think just getting away from that mentality, which is what like your stuff has helped us do has just been like, so life changing in every aspect because we're not beating ourselves up all the time, because I really think shame is the catalyst to not being able to change.

Because you're, you're not holding yourself accountable to your own decisions. You're just saying, you know what, I'm a bad person. I did a bad thing and I can't. I can't get over this, which is just not conducive to what the atonement is about.

Zach Spafford: Well, it's not conducive to feeling good about how you're going forward.

Yeah. I just, I, I always, I have always said, and I believe this, people who feel good, make good decisions. Yeah. And shame is about punching yourself in the face, hoping that it'll help you see better. And I just don't think that's valuable. Whereas people who feel terrible, they make bad decisions. People who feel good, they're like, I recognize that this isn't part of the life that I want.

But I'm not going to spend a lot of time beating myself up, kicking myself while I'm here. I'm going to figure it out. I'm going to look at this objectively and observe and resolve the issues, which is huge. That's a, that's a big difference. So how has, I'm going to ask you guys a really personal question.

I'm going to apologize. How have things changed for you guys intimately?

Why are you looking at me?

Carly: I think It's honestly just a place of safety, whereas before it, I'm just going to be totally up front. Good. And it's not, it's not like I wanted to do this. It's just kind of where my brain went, of like, I'm not going to reward you with being intimate if you're going to look at this.

Like, that doesn't feel safe to me. That doesn't feel like I can be vulnerable with you with my mind or my body. And so I'm just not going to give you that. I don't want to, I don't want to do that. Um, but now, I mean, I'm not going to tell you that Nate's perfect because he's not,

Zach Spafford: you know, and I haven't met that guy yet.

So I'm glad to hear that Nate is also not

Carly: perfect. I'm porn free. Like it never happens. Like it still happens, but I've been able to shift it from like, Again, with that conversation with Darcy, of like, this is not about me. This is not about my body. And once I could kind of get over that, like, I know Nate loves me.

I know he loves my body because he wouldn't have married me, you know what I mean? And so, I just, I had to get over that, of like, this is not something that has to do with me. And, like, intimately it's made a world of difference because I feel safe again, whereas before I didn't.

Nate: It's like the biggest thing is it used to be like Dude, like, if I've made a slip up, it's just like, don't even, I don't want to kiss you, I don't want to cuddle with you, I don't want to be near you for two or three days.

Like, you just, she felt unsafe and betrayed, and that is completely gone. Like, that kind of dynamic, which is, Super important, right? Like, there's still things that are hard, of course, like, you know, your wife's never gonna love it if you have a slip up and you looked at other women, like, it's a rare, it's a rare thing for us now, but of course she still doesn't love it, but it's completely separated out where she's like, okay, that's, that's his thing, I understand why it happened, like, we're still working through some stuff, and we just, that no longer affects our intimacy or our relationship at all the way it did in the past.

Carly: And I do have to say real quick, like, there was a point where I was trying so hard to dial in to why he did stuff. I'm like, okay, tell me the situation, tell me the time frame, tell me, like, what you were wearing. Like, you know, it was just like

Zach Spafford: What shoes were on your feet? Yeah, give me

Carly: all the details of why you messed up.

He would be like, currently, I don't know. Like, I don't know, like, I just did it, and my, my brain was just like, this is what I want to do. And I just, you know, I think it's just changed so much. In our relationship to be able to feel like, okay, I don't have to manage him. I'm still disappointed when stuff like that happens, but it's more like, shoot, like I'm really disappointed for you and that you're struggling with this right now.

Nate: That's the key. Like, I'm disappointed for you. Oh, that sucks for you. Like, it's not about her at all. She's like, dude, I'm sorry. That sucks for you. How can I be here for you? Like for me, that's huge, right? Like it's complete 180 from what

Zach Spafford: it was in the past. Yeah, instead of rejection, which is really what she, like, that's what she was throwing out beforehand, now it's Not, I love what you're doing, but I love you.

Yeah. Yeah, right? I don't love this, but I love you and I'm gonna choose you and I'm gonna be, I'm gonna choose closeness with you in spite of the anxiety that you're feeling and that I might even be feeling. I'm not gonna get disorganized, dysregulated about this. I'm gonna choose you in the face of our struggles.

And I just think that's such a beautiful sentiment because so often we've been told This is going to destroy you. It's going to destroy your marriage and it doesn't have to, it just doesn't have to. I was

Carly: going to say to Nate's credit, he has always been pretty honest with me. There's been times where I've been ticked when he hasn't been, but like, he is so good about telling me like, Hey, I slipped up.

I messed up. I'm so sorry. But like, it's to the point where I just want him to like. I just want to know, like, that he's struggling, rather than it just be something that he internalizes, because I want it to be something I can support him in. And I fully recognize that not every wife has that privilege. I understand that porn is a lot of secrecy, it's a lot of betrayal, and not everybody has that privilege, but to his credit, I think that's what's helped us.

So much is just that we can be on the same page and be honest with each other about where we're at.

Zach Spafford: So if you were to recommend, because I know you guys do recommend us to all kinds of people, if you were to recommend us to someone, what would you say to them? I'm going to start with you, Nate, and then I want to hear what Carly has to say.

Nate: Sure. I would say if you want to actually have the right tools to know how to look at yourself and you're willing to, to take a look at yourself and really why you're doing things, which it's not comfortable, I'll be honest with you, but if you're ready to do that and look inward and have somebody help you through it, then, then this is what you need.

Like if you've been through the 12 steps, you've been through meeting with bishops, you've been through counseling, you've done all the things you feel like nothing works. That's where I was. It's 100 percent where I was, and Zach's tools are nothing like that. Um, it's completely different, it's a completely different attitude, it's a completely different mindset around it, the tools are different.

And for me, even though it takes time to use them, when you use those tools and apply them, it affects every aspect of your life in a positive way. So I, I cannot recommend you more. I mean, we try and tell everybody we can. Please go listen to the podcast, please go talk to Zach, like He will help you and he will not shame you.

That's the biggest thing I would say is he will not Whatever your goals are Zach doesn't care. It's like if you're like, I only want to look at porn once a week He'd be like cool. I'll help you do that. So whatever your goals are he can help you reach your goals It's not you're gonna come to him and say here's what I want to change or achieve in my life And he can help you with whatever that is.

Zach Spafford: Well, and I think I think honestly It doesn't matter what I think about your pornography use, it only really matters what you think. And if what you think is, you know, I want to be able to do this once a year, fine. That's not my job, is not to come and tell you don't look at porn. You already know what it is that's good for you.

I'm not here to make that more apparent or less apparent. What I'm here to do is help you create the person that you want to be, that you can stand solidly on and say, I'm great with who I am. Carly, what about you? What would you tell somebody?

Carly: I mean, I think when, when anybody goes through some hard changes or they want to change something in their life, it's like, there's always these quick fixes, right?

There's always quick fixes for everything that aren't lasting. And I would just tell people, like, if you want lasting change, like Zach's pro Zach and Darcy's program will help you shift your mindset around this. It will help you be introspective, learn about how your brain works so that you can actually make lasting change in an environment that's conducive to change, that's not going to shame you, that's not going to make you feel like garbage, that's going to actually help you understand why you're doing what you're doing.

I

Nate: have to add to that. If you want to work through this with somebody who's been there, like there's no one better than Zach and Darcy. Like that, for me, Darcy was able to say things to Carly I could never say. Like she would punch me in the face. But because she has been there, and because Zach has been there, it's just different.

So when Darcy challenges Carly's thinking, that's why there's a breakthrough there. I've been here and I love you and I know what you're going through. Like, and that's how this whole process feels going through with you guys is we've been there, we know how hard it is, how hurtful it feels, but we'll help you through it, you know, and it just, that comes off very differently than somebody sitting on a high horse who's never been through any of this.

So.

Zach Spafford: Absolutely. I can't agree more. If you want to know how to get to the top of the mountain, go with somebody who's been there. Otherwise you're going to be stumbling a lot of the way up, you know, it's going to be tough.

Love you guys. Any last words, anything else you want to say before we end here?

Carly: No, just that, you know, you just have to believe that change is possible. And that you have the power within yourself to do that. And it doesn't, you know, have to be like this life altering experience, but it's just the gradual small steps that, that you guys teach in your program.

And I'm, I'm honestly not trying to like, like, I will shamelessly plug you all day, you know, I'll just be like, I love Zach and Darcy, like everyone should listen to them, but truly it's, it is what made the difference in our marriage. It's the difference.

Nate: That's all I can add is, I mean, we just can't love you guys more.

So grateful that you have taken the risk, you know, in your personal life and financially and every, all the sacrifices that you guys have made to be able to dedicate your lives and do this. I mean, we're just so grateful because it has made the difference for us in our marriage.

Zach Spafford: Well, thank you so much.

And thank you for sharing your story, because I think that it's invaluable for people to be able to say, I need something and I don't know where to turn. Who can I trust? And you guys telling your story, I think gives so much weight to this work. And I appreciate it. I appreciate your, your vulnerability.

You guys are amazing, amazing couple. Um, we'll have to hit lunch here at Pork Belly's in the not too distant future. You got it. All right, my friends. All right, everybody have a great week and we'll talk to you next week.