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Episode 220

Hey everybody. And welcome to thrive beyond pornography. My name is Zach Spafford. I'm your host. And this week on the podcast. We are playing a recording that we did with [email protected]. He has a program. He did this, I think it was in October where we did a porn resilience conference and it was a great opportunity for us to talk about our philosophy on how it. Is that we help couples resolve their pornography struggles.

And part of that is taking greater responsibility working on your side of the street. But I would love to share this with you and feel free to share it with your friends. We love doing this work. We're grateful for you guys and for everybody out there who has shared this podcast to somebody who needs it, and if you don't know if you know somebody who needs it, You probably, all you have to do is go and ask about five people in your circle. And three of them will be like, yeah, I totally need that.

Thanks. So feel free to share this. I love you guys and we'll

talk to you next week

Taylor Chambers: Hey everybody, welcome to this interview in Porn Resilient, the pilgrimage from unwanted porn use to fearless sexuality. And today I am joined by the Spaffords. Thanks guys for being here. Appreciate it. Yeah. So, um, uh, I, I met with you guys last year for an interview and, um, just, uh, really came to love how you approach, um, the, Um, you, you guys approach pornography with a lot of authenticity, kind of with your own story and a lot of wisdom and kind of like how to navigate it.

Taylor Chambers: And so hoping that this discussion today kind of takes us one step further from the previous year's conversation. Uh, I'm sure it will. So now, um, if you guys aren't familiar with, um, uh, the Spaffords, we've got Zach and Darcy here. Um, and you guys are life coaches. specializing in pornography. Um, and you offer a program called Thrive Beyond Pornography.

Taylor Chambers: Um, and then a podcast, uh, by the same name, Thrive Beyond Pornography. And so, um, yeah, definitely recommend checking those things out. Um, and, um, you'll get a taste of kind of the, their viewpoint and everything today. So,

Zach Spafford: um, very cool. Yeah, we love, we love talking about porn. I know that sounds like a weird thing to say, but I know that there are so many couples out there that are struggling that it's just fun to talk about something that you can really make an impact and change people's lives with.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. Yeah,

Taylor Chambers: totally. Yeah. Well, and you guys make it fun too. Um, you, you, you tend to not keep it too heavy or serious and I think that kind of, that helps people get momentum and get things going. So. Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, so now, I mean, uh, this isn't the heart of the conversation, but you guys work as a couple, you guys have navigated, you know, um, the dilemma of pornography as a couple.

Taylor Chambers: Um, and now that you're kind of in this new stage of life of working together, new, I mean, it's been a while, but you know, what's the, what's the best part? What's the good stuff? What's the hard stuff of being a team?

Darcy Spafford: I think as far as like the work that we do, we love doing it as a couple because Zach at first started doing it where he just was focusing on the men, but when we brought the wife into the picture and the couple into the picture, being able to facilitate those conversations and create a huge impact, I think is probably the most rewarding thing that we do.

Darcy Spafford: And as far as just like the day to day work, um, Zach mostly does most of the day to day work. I mostly take care of the kids and homeschool, but, um, Yeah, I

Zach Spafford: mean, it's, there's a lot of just function stuff that you got to get done, you know, like posts and emails and all the, the, the stuff that you, I wish that I could, you know, hand off to an EA.

Zach Spafford: And that will probably come in the future. But the truth is the work that we do together, the most rewarding part about it is when we sit down with a couple and they are having a struggle and we're able to from both perspectives, really dial in on what's, what's going on and help them start to move through that.

Zach Spafford: And one of the things that's really great about having Darcy as a part of this conversation is that there are things that she can say to the wives that I can't. You know, she has a perspective. She has the experience. She has the sense of what it is. That's actually going on for them that I don't have.

Zach Spafford: Not because I haven't been paying attention, but because from a woman's perspective, it's different than from a man's perspective, it's just the reality. And when we sit down with those couples and we're like. All right. Tell us the story. What's going on? She really has this capacity to dial in on where that, that wife is.

Zach Spafford: You usually it's a wife and really help her come out of this tragic space. Yeah. To, Oh, wait a minute. I can actually not just like my husband and enjoy being around him, but start to create a thriving marriage beyond this struggle that we've endured.

Taylor Chambers: Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, you, you, you, you guys can approach it from different angles.

Taylor Chambers: And, um, especially because you've been open with your story, your clients know that, hey, this is something that each of you has gone through. Um, I imagine that's incredibly powerful for people. So, yeah,

Zach Spafford: I mean,

Darcy Spafford: the toughest part, what's the toughest part? What's the toughest part? When I don't post on social media.

Zach Spafford: When you don't keep the cadence.

Darcy Spafford: Yeah, I hate social media. I'm like, oh, it's like so much of what people post on there is just fake. And so I just want nothing to do with it. But I see probably the toughest part is just when we disagree. Which, I mean, right, isn't that, I, I feel like that's any couple that works together.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, yeah. That's any couple that lives together at any time, in any, any, uh, like, set of circumstances. Disagreements are just part of, part of the course. Being able to navigate those emotionally, intelligently, and without making it about you. Yeah. That's the, the work that everybody does. Yeah, totally.

Taylor Chambers: Yeah, my wife and I, um, we share maybe a similar balance of like, um, you know, I, I lead in a lot of the, the, You know, forward facing elements and do the direct coaching and everything.

Taylor Chambers: Uh, but she does so much, um, to, to support this whole thing, you know, existing and, uh, yeah, for us, the toughest part is just like, is this yours or is this mine and if it's yours, you know, how do we coordinate the time with a little

Zach Spafford: money at times, right? Like, Hey, I thought you were doing this. Oh, wait, you're not.

Zach Spafford: Okay. I, I, it's important to me, so I'll take it on. All

Taylor Chambers: right. Yeah, that can get tricky. So, well, but yeah, I mean, that's relationships in general, right? Just figuring out how to navigate things together is part of the whole thing. So, well, because I have you guys as a couple, um, you know, a lot of our discussion is going to center on relationships and all of that.

Taylor Chambers: And so, um, I guess I want to start with just that, that beginning stage of like. Um, pornography can, can kind of wreak havoc on a, on a couple. And so when somebody's relationship is on the rocks or when it's really rough, um, because of pornography, uh, where's it, where's the starting point? Like, where do you, where do you, um, try to guide couples to in terms of stabilizing and getting that first step underway?

Darcy Spafford: So it's interesting because we see couples all along the spectrum, right? Where it's poop just hit the fan and crisis mode to, we've been dealing with this for 27 years.

Taylor Chambers: Yeah.

Darcy Spafford: We just need the next step. So I think with each couple, it's different where you start, right?

Darcy Spafford: Depending on where they are. But I think for the couples that when, when it just is revealed or there, it's just happened again, right? They maybe knew about it before they got married, but. Now they're married and oh, it's still there, right? Sex didn't solve the problem. That part when it's in the beginning, it's a lot of what we do is really a reframing of the struggle and what's going on.

Darcy Spafford: Yeah. Because I think for a lot of us, we've received a lot of really negative messages about porn and what porn does to your marriage and what it means and all of those things. When we get those couples just in the beginning, even just like a hour long conversation with me, oftentimes can give a, a, just a different groundwork to get going on versus, so much of that crisis.

Darcy Spafford: Like, for us, we like to kind of take all the doom and gloom out of it and just say, okay, like, let's get the facts. What's really going on? Let's, let's look at this from a, Objective point of view, and let's see where we can make some adjustments.

Taylor Chambers: Okay. Yeah. I love that. So a lot of the times you're just like helping them, like, here's maybe a useful way to see this situation, which might be different than the way that you are naturally seeing the situation.

Zach Spafford: There's no way to take away the pain in the beginning. It's important to acknowledge. That usually the wife is deeply upset that for her, this can be a, anything ranging from, I really don't like this behavior to all the way to, they feel like they've been cheated on and understanding their perspective along that, that spectrum and helping do three things.

Zach Spafford: One, create a perspective that is tenable, something that everybody can agree on and understand what is actually happening here. Taking the right actions. So not just taking action, but taking the right action. So committing to things that are doable, committing to learning through this process, committing to understanding what's going on for your partner and making sure that as much as possible, you're not making what is happening on the other side of the street about you. And of course, that's tough, because when a wife thinks that they've been cheated on, it is about them. And that is a difficult position, and it's a, it's, understandably, it's a place where very few people want to come back from.

Zach Spafford: And just kind of, Rearranging that perspective, taking the right actions, not promising more than you actually have the capacity to do, and then willingness to go through the process. Having the willingness to actually sit down and go through what's going on for each of you on each of your side of the streets and be uncomfortable for a while because the reality is, Esther Perel talks about it, every single marriage goes through three to five different marriages, right? Every, everybody's married to three to five different people in their lifetime. Even if they never get married to a different person. I would say that Darcy and I are on at least our third marriage to each other. Like we've never been married to anybody else, but having the willingness to acknowledge what that is, mourn what it was and move into the next marriage is, it's tough.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. It can be difficult for a couple to do that. If they're consistently looking at the other side and saying, you did this. We're broken. It's your fault and you have to fix it. So to stabilize, we have to be willing to, you know, again, just stand on our side of the street, be willing to look at a, maybe a different perspective, even if it isn't one that justifies us or confirms our biases, look at a different perspective, take different actions and be willing to endure the discomfort that that's going to come along with that.

Taylor Chambers: Yeah, totally. Yeah. Um, it's, it's kind of hopeful to, to recognize that marriages have iterations and different versions. ,I heard it once.

Darcy Spafford: I think in the beginning it's so hard because it's like the marriage that you thought you had or that you were going to have looks different. And whether it's pornography or maybe financial troubles or kids, right?

Darcy Spafford: Like infertility. All the things that we think our life is going to be and look like, when it doesn't come to that, it's, it's hard, right? It's really hard to deal with those emotions. And mourn the loss of what we thought we would have, right? Yeah.

Taylor Chambers: Yeah. I'm with you though, because, um, when we can kind of see, where we're at, um, and undergo that grieving process and acknowledge, you know, we can deconstruct how we've had it set up and reconstruct something new.

Taylor Chambers: Um, I know that, you know, I'm, I don't know, maybe we're in the third, maybe we're still trying to get into the third marriage, you know, um, but we're, like, there's some things that I'm having to actively, like, undo, um, like some of the things that I need to unlearn, and yet when we do that, it creates space for, like, kind of finding this new Thank you.

Taylor Chambers: Way of relating, kind of entering a new phase is painful. And so a lot of times we do resist it. We kind of like try and stay out of it, try and get back to the way things, you know, um, uh, either were, or the way that we think that we dreamed them to be. Um, and yeah, there's something about like leaning in and moving through it rather than trying to, to recapture something that was lost.

Darcy Spafford: Yeah. Another thing I see a lot is trying to get back to status quo, and kind of sweeping it under the rug, right? Like some couples want to try and pretend it's not there and let's just move on. And, you know, let's not talk about it and let's just move forward, but that's not going to solve the problem either.

Darcy Spafford: Right. It's just like, it just comes up 20 years later and, and it's like, Oh, wow, we didn't deal with this. It's, it's still there. I thought we just fixed it by not talking about it, you know.

Taylor Chambers: Yeah. Yeah. Great point. Yeah. Just ignoring it, um, means that it continues, like it keeps us in that, in that version of marriage, which often has its own ramifications of, you know, disconnection or loneliness or whatnot.

Taylor Chambers: So.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I think stabilizing the relationships. I mean, as, as all of the things go, stabilizing the relation relationship may not be the first move. It may simply be asking yourself, am I, am I willing to do this work? And not necessarily saying, okay, I need everything to be back to a certain place, but just saying, do I, do I have the will, do I have the desire to stay with this person and not change my life in a, in a extremely dramatic way?

Zach Spafford: And that's, that's an important question because one, it says, okay, what direction am I going? But two, it really is empowerment. It's, it's about, I'm choosing this. And if I can take this on as a choice, then it's different than I'm stuck. And I think a lot of wives in particular feel stuck. They may have taken on the role of the homemaker and not necessarily have their own income and also don't necessarily want to upset the comfort that they have, the comforts that they have in their life, right?

Zach Spafford: And as a result, they might think, Oh, I'm stuck with this person. And if you are willing to answer the question, honestly, am I willing to do the work to stay or willing to do the work of re engaging this relationship? That can be really empowering. And it really put you in a position to say, I own this decision and I can stay or go, it's up to me.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. Yeah.

Taylor Chambers: Yeah. I mean, it might seem a bit ironic, but you know, a lot of the couples I work with, um, it is just like, Hey, full permission. If you guys need to end this marriage, that's going to be okay, but we're going to work together so that each of you grows, whether it's together or, or, you know, we, you know, try and do our best to separate appropriately.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. Because the truth is what happens if you don't grow through this process. So you just walk into the next marriage and you're the same person, the same sorts of challenges are going to infect that relationship as well.

Taylor Chambers: Yeah. Well, and you know, research bears that out. We, we very much are relationally patterned and so we, we do have our tendencies to be drawn to particular types of people and, uh, not inherently problematic unless we're trying to kind of avoid the, the growth that is maybe inherent in, in that kind of relationship formation.

Taylor Chambers: Yeah. Awesome.

Darcy Spafford: Well, and the truth is, how often people look at porn, the statistics are pretty dang high. So, I mean, your chances of leaving one marriage where porn was a struggle does not guarantee that you're not going to hop into another marriage where porn is also a struggle because we've had couples that, you know, are on a second marriage and they're, they're dealing with pornography.

Darcy Spafford: And they're like, I want this one to end differently than the first one did, and I'm willing to now, like, step in and I'm gonna, I want to make this work, and it's kind of interesting.

Zach Spafford: I heard this joke the other day, you said, I want this marriage to end differently, and I heard this joke the other day, it basically was, all successful marriages end in death.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, That's a really morbid thought, I think.

Taylor Chambers: Yeah, that's how we're trying to end ours,

Darcy Spafford: I guess. That's the joke

Taylor Chambers: that we should have started on. Yeah, that's right. Opening

Zach Spafford: joke right there. I dare you to start your next interview with that. So, all... And just like carry that through all the rest of your interviews.

Zach Spafford: It'll be our running gag.

Taylor Chambers: Well, um, so, okay. So the, well, actually I wanted to highlight like the, the courage it takes to, you know, we're talking about just, you know, leaning in and working with the momentum of it's time to grieve time to time to make changes. It takes a whole lot of guts. I mean, this is a very difficult process.

Taylor Chambers: And so anytime somebody chooses that, I really. I really respect that and uh, know that it's not like, I don't necessarily assume that everyone will choose it, you know, that's like a, that's a big ask, um, but a lot of people do. A lot of people will, will really prefer the hard work for greater life satisfaction and um, which makes sense on paper, right?

Taylor Chambers: I mean, that, that looks like the right answer, but in the, in the day to day experience that can get really, really messy, can get really, really tricky.

Darcy Spafford: I know for me, it took a lot of years to actually lean into growing and, owning the things that I could work on because everyone around me was like, super validating of me and my position as like a poor wife who's, who's dealing with her husband who struggles with porn, right?

Darcy Spafford: Like, yeah, I could get everyone on my team.

Taylor Chambers: And yet that didn't, that didn't push the growth

Darcy Spafford: that you, that didn't, that, that was. Causing me to stay stuck.

Taylor Chambers: Right. Yeah. I see what you're saying. Well, so let's kind of break it down. So if you are like, I guess, what does it take to be, um, a good partner? Like relate well, when you have hurt your, your partner, like what, what does that individual need to be doing or focusing on in order to, you know, help the relationship heal?

Zach Spafford: Want me to go? Yeah. I, well, I think, I think it's a good question to ask right. To, to the person who was hurt. What is it that the person who is hurting you can do effectively?

Darcy Spafford: Yeah. I, I, it's hard, right? 'cause , I know where I am now. And I know what I would say now. . But I think in that moment I really like, for me, what I really wanted him to say was, "I am, I'm sorry, I'm gonna own this." "I did this and I am, I'm gonna take the steps. to change this." and I, I think in the beginning, because I was so hurt and he was trying to so much manage my feelings, he like over promised things that he couldn't deliver on.

Taylor Chambers: Sure.

Darcy Spafford: And that ended up leading to more hurt. He was like, "I promise I'm not gonna look at porn again," you know, and all those things.

Darcy Spafford: And And of course, in that moment, I, it felt good. And I like soaked it all in like, okay, good. He's committed now. Right? Like he sees my pain. He's really committed now. This it's really going to change, but then it didn't. And, and then the hurt just felt even worse. So I think part of it is just really taking ownership for the ways in which you have hurt your partner.

Darcy Spafford: Um, but, but I think it's so hard because it's like for most of these men, Pornography has been a struggle that they've struggled with well before marriage. And so it's like, I don't think that these men who are struggling with porn are intentionally trying to hurt their partner. I think every once in a while, like sometimes, right.

Darcy Spafford: You come across it and someone's being resentful and they're using porn as a, as a weapon. Right. Right. But a lot of the men that we interact with, like They're genuinely this, they're, they're deeply pained by their, their interactions with pornography. And so I don't think they're setting out there to hurt their partner.

Darcy Spafford: Now, because you are in a partnership, your actions do affect your partner. Cause I like to say we're not robots, right? We're not and so that's where it gets tricky. It's owning that your behavior is affecting your partner, but also realizing that. Your behavior, like their actions are not about trying to hurt you.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, so it's, it's this really funny two way street. Number one is it's not about you, Gary. And I know that sounds... that really does sound harsh, but the truth is when I was choosing porn, it was never about Darcy.

Zach Spafford: And a lot of wives, a lot of people, they start in that space and they're like, "well, why can't he just think about me? The truth is he's, he's not thinking about you, not because he doesn't love you, but because he is in pain and he is trying to figure out how to deal with that. And that is the, that, that's the whole process.

Zach Spafford: And, and for most of these people before they were with their wives, they were in that same space of, I don't know how to cope or manage or deal with my own discomforts at all kinds of different levels, whether it's deep stress or it's just boredom. And. In the process of learning how to deal with that, I came across this coping mechanism that I know can create good feelings right now for a period of time.

Zach Spafford: And so that has become this way of dealing with their discomforts.

Zach Spafford: Now that's not how it feels. And we always have to acknowledge that because it's important to recognize that when I was choosing porn, Darcy was deeply distraught by my choices. So, on, on the one hand, it's, again, it's about getting the right perspective, but on the other hand, it's about, well, as, as the person who has struggled with this behavior, the actions that I can take, the things that I can do to move forward, they're not the same things that I've been doing up to this point.

Zach Spafford: So I have to be willing to shift. I have to be willing to look at this differently. I have to be willing to try new things. You know, if you're building a house and. It starts to fall down and you have to build another house. You're going to do things differently. The next time you're going to look at it and go, what failed?

Zach Spafford: What was broken? Why did it break? I use this analogy all the time with my clients; in your job, when something goes wrong, what do you do? And almost invariably, there's some sort of standard operating procedure, where they go and they look at what happened, why it happened, and assess how they could do it differently so that in the future it doesn't occur again.

Zach Spafford: Right. That's a pretty normal way of dealing with problems. When it comes to pornography, often what we do is we try to distance ourselves from the issue mentally and emotionally as quickly as possible, so that we don't have to feel bad that we're not living up to our own standards.

Zach Spafford: That way of dealing with problems is ripe for re engaging that same problem over and over and over again. So as the partner who has hurt someone, it really has to be about looking internally and going, what, what is the, what is it that is going on here that I need to make a shift on?

Taylor Chambers: It sounds like you guys kind of both mentioned this theme of ownership.

Taylor Chambers: Like it wasn't so much Darcy, the reassurance or the promises, um, that made the long term difference, but there was something about ownership. And Zach, you're, you're mentioning like, Hey, maybe the best thing that you can do for your partner is to go inward and do something new and different to address this in a more solid way.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. And when you say go inward, I just want to make sure that nobody takes that as. Withdrawing from your partner.

Taylor Chambers: Okay. Right. Good, good clarification. Yeah. Yeah.

Zach Spafford: Because I think that that is how it, that's what feels most comfortable. Trying to stay away from them so that you don't feel the hurt that they feel.

Zach Spafford: And, and, and I think that that's, that's tough. That's tough to do. It's tough to, you know, I remember specifically there was a time when I messed up and Darcy said to me, I don't know if I can stay in this relationship. And it was tough. It was a really, really tough moment. And I just said, I get it. I know where you are.

Zach Spafford: I understand why you're where you are, because I have made this choice. I'm going to choose to stay. I'm going to choose to be in, and I'm going to support you in whatever you choose. You know, that was tough. That was a really tough moment because it was me not worrying about my own needs, not worrying about how I felt and.

Zach Spafford: Choosing closeness with her in spite of the hurt that was going on in that moment. I think that was the right move.

Taylor Chambers: Well, it's a powerful stance to take. It's acknowledging, it's, it's practicing that empathy. Um, but, but still kind of claiming what it is that you ultimately want, which is like, no, I want this to work with us.

Taylor Chambers: Yeah. So, um, and I guess then we'll kind of ask the flip side of that question. Um, and, you know, what does it take to be a good partner, essentially, when you've been hurt by someone? Um, you know, we've talked about, like, you know, that ownership idea, but, you know, what, maybe what's the best way of relating while you're in that hurt position?

Darcy Spafford: So, I like to say, I mean, it's like, we all say it, right? Hurt people hurt people. Uh, right. And so it's. I know it's super cliche, but it's true, right? Like

Zach Spafford: all of coaching is just cliches over and over and over again. I'm just kidding.

Darcy Spafford: Like, you know, like you think about the bully at school, right? You know, you got to wonder what's going on for that kid, right?

Darcy Spafford: There's something under that bullying, right? Like it's that, that kid bullying that kid is really not about kids that's being bullied, right?

Taylor Chambers: Yeah. Right.

Darcy Spafford: Like for me, I like to think about, okay, what, what is going on for my partner? Like, why, why does he keep choosing this behavior when I know it goes against his values and who he wants to be?

Darcy Spafford: And, and how can I be a support to that, to him making? The steps that he needs to take and knowing that I can't make him do anything, which I think is the hardest, hardest, hardest, hardest problem for the wives. Like I've, I've worked with women that have, you know, said, you know, I've gotten two boob jobs and I've done this and I've done that.

Darcy Spafford: And I, you know, they literally look like a supermodel on the other side of this, of the screen. Right. And their spouse is choosing pornography still. And it's cause it's not about you. Like there, there's nothing you can do to. Make your husband stop looking at porn, right?

Zach Spafford: Yeah. If there was, we would not have this problem.

Zach Spafford: Right, yeah. Right? Because women would solve it. Because there are millions of women. Women would be like, alright, you are not looking at porn anymore. Done. Problem solved. Right?

Darcy Spafford: But part of that is, it's like, sometimes I think if we can take ownership and think that we can solve it, it gives us a false sense of control.

Darcy Spafford: Yeah. Right? Right? Because it's like, if I, if I can, Somehow help my partner, not her and not choose porn. Then I'm, I'm in the, I have the reins, right? Like I can control this and I can make it better for both of us. But what I had to learn is that all I could do is love him and, and choose him and support him and encourage him and be positive, like as best I could.

Darcy Spafford: And also still expressing my, my feelings, right? Cause it doesn't work to just like sweep your feelings under the rug too. But I think the more I was able to separate his behavior from me in all the ways, right? Like, like really separate it, like really understand, okay, this really doesn't have anything to do with me all the way down, like all the levels.

Darcy Spafford: Because I think I always hear wives say, I know it's not about me. You know, a lot of times I know it's not about me, but like underneath, through the conversation, it still comes out that there's a little bit. In them that thinks maybe it has something to do with me, right? You know?

Zach Spafford: Yeah. Well, it still feels like it is about them. The framing that we often take is externally focused. And the work that you did was so much more than just like being supportive of me. It was getting to a place mentally and emotionally where you were. Solid and self validated and you're like, I'm, I'm going to say this, I'm effing hot.

Zach Spafford: And if he doesn't want to have sex with me and he'd rather go do that, that's on him. I don't really, like, I don't see it, but. It's not about this cause I am amazing. Right. And that is a position of empowerment. That's a position of being solid in yourself to where you can choose in and not let the disorganization and the anxiety of your spouse be the problem.

Zach Spafford: And be so externally focused. That was one of the biggest components of what you did when you were the hurt person. And this, by the way. This took a long time. This wasn't like overnight, you know, I wish we'd had a coach. I wish we'd had somebody who could walk us through this process because it didn't, it didn't just happen.

Darcy Spafford: It took years. It was a five year process.

Zach Spafford: It took years of us doing a lot of research, doing the work, failing at it miserably and not having anybody to say, well, this is what you should be seeing or could be seeing that you can't see because you're inside the bottle. And for you being the hurt party.

Zach Spafford: Once you came to that position of, I'm awesome, and when he chooses porn, it's not about me, you could still be disappointed, but you didn't make it, it never became this knockdown dragout fight again.

Taylor Chambers: So there's, there's the active work of, of reframing and you're, as you mentioned, it's, it's going beyond the intellectual and kind of all the layers. And Zach, that's what you're talking to as well. Just like in many ways, it's an invitation for a hurt partner. To really pay attention to the relationship with themself, heal it up, solidify it.

Taylor Chambers: Um, because that, that positions you to handle the stuff that's outside of your control, which is your partner's behavior.

Darcy Spafford: Well, and it's kind of interesting and maybe I'll bring it up because I brought it up on an interview we did with JFF and I've had multiple people bring it up to me. Yeah. I noticed two things, right?

Darcy Spafford: Like for the, a lot of the women that struggle, it comes down to two things, lack of control and self confidence issues, right? Like porn just amplifies those two struggles that I think women inherently are born with, right? Like self confidence, body image issues, like, like I swear, it just like comes with birth, right?

Darcy Spafford: Yeah. And it, and it starts young. And it's been a struggle for almost all women. It doesn't matter if they're a size, you know, perfect or not, right? Like it's just there, no matter who I feel like.

Zach Spafford: Is that a technical description of sizes? Size perfect and

Darcy Spafford: whatever, you know, whatever we have in our mind. But if I say, what if your spouse was looking at thousand pound women porn, let's just go like super extreme, right?

Darcy Spafford: How might that feel different and how might you interact with that struggle differently than you are now? And, and oftentimes the women are like, I'm really curious about that, right? Like they get to a place of curiosity and understanding so much quicker because in that moment, they are not thinking about that they are not enough or that they are, can't measure up or they can't compete with that or all of those ideas that naturally come when, when porn is in the marriage.

Taylor Chambers: I like that it turns it on its head, and it kind of makes you like, um, pornography really does kind of naturally push against some of the, the pain points that women are naturally experiencing. Um, but just like, you know, for, again to continue kind of with the gendered, um, discussion, like for the men, this existed before the marriage, and for women, there are issues that existed before the marriage that are now being, um, And, um, and so, yeah, for both, it's an invitation to like, hey, we came together and now we're hurting each other and it feels crappy.

Taylor Chambers: And now we get to look back at what we brought into this and kind of feel that up. And so I like that you guys kind of approach it where everybody has their work to do. Um, you know, and by refocusing on kind of the, the personal work, um, it can support us in getting out of that kind of blame game. And like, if you would just be different, then I wouldn't have to go to porn.

Taylor Chambers: And if you would stop going to porn, then I would feel better about myself or whatever it might be.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. If only, if, if only there was an externality that could solve all our problems, like a magic pill. It's a, the problem is that we. All of us humans in general, we want something that will solve our problems.

Zach Spafford: This is why marketing works so well, because it shows us an image of what could be, right? I remember as a kid, beer commercials. Right? It's always a party. All the people were hot at the party, right? And never was there, like, a gross, yeah, a gross scene where, where you see the aftermath of a night of drinking.

Zach Spafford: You never see that because what we are looking for is the thing that will make us feel good right now, regardless of how we feel. And what we really need to do is we need to do the work of figuring out how to feel good, maybe at a lower level, but over a more consistent period of time. And that struggle is tough because we all want to just pick up our phones and get a hit of dopamine.

Zach Spafford: Nobody wants to go to the gym. And those two things, they They have similar chemical structures, but what they differ in is the amplitude in the moment versus over time. So the amount of chemicals you're getting in a short period of time versus the amount of chemicals you get over a long period of time.

Zach Spafford: And, and the more we go to the gym and work out, the more we do the ice baths, which is a fun, I don't know if you've seen that stuff, that's crazy, right? Where you get into an ice bath like for 10 minutes a week and all of a sudden you have a better. Uh, serotonin and dopamine receptor level over a longer period of time.

Zach Spafford: Your, your body, you know, burns fat better, all kinds of things, right? All of that to say, I'm not willing to do what's hard right now to have a happy, long, more long term, uh, feeling in my life. And we have to flip that on its head. We have to be willing to say, well, what can I struggle with right now that will give me better happiness over time?

Zach Spafford: And very few people want to do that work. I don't want to do that work. Yeah, right. It's my job to talk about this and I don't want to do that work. Yeah. So don't feel bad about that. Just be willing to say, okay, can I change that? Yeah, right,

Darcy Spafford: right. Well, if it's taking action towards what you do want, even if you don't want to do it.

Darcy Spafford: Yes. Right. Like I want to eat off, I hate doing dishes, but I want to eat off clean silverware and plates and you know, all the things. So I do the dishes anyways, because I value having clean dishes. Yeah.

Taylor Chambers: Yeah, yeah, it's, it's kind of, it's tapping into a higher desire, um, a more long term desire, but yeah, there are those natural barriers, the discomfort, um, and resistance that comes up, but being willing to kind of move through the barriers, move through that resistance, yeah, I mean, that really is where we yield a lot of our growth and satisfaction.

Taylor Chambers: Well, so in the midst of all of this, are there particular thoughts or encouragement for couples about how they communicate to each other about this issue? Like where to focus or practices or maybe it's unique to each couple?

Zach Spafford: Yeah, there's a lot to do around communication. I think the issue most often is When Darcy was coming to me to ask me about my pornography struggle, what she was really doing was she was coming to me to ask if she was okay.

Zach Spafford: Okay. Right, right. Mm-Hmm. . She was saying, Hey, are you, are you looking at porn? Hey, are you struggling right now? Are you

Darcy Spafford: struggling right now? Are you like, is that a problem? That girl over there that's super hot in the bikini. She a problem. Is she, you know, like it was Mm-Hmm. . Almost all, most of the communication around pornography in the early years were all about trying to calm my own anxieties.

Darcy Spafford: Uhhuh . Right? Yeah. It was very much me trying to manage myself. You

Taylor Chambers: initiating the conversation. Through him. And seeing like, what's the

Darcy Spafford: status? Help me feel better. Say, say the things that I want you to say so I can feel better.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. Be my Prince Charming here. Solve all my problems. Mm hmm. And that was really tough for a couple of reasons.

Zach Spafford: One, I didn't feel like I could really talk to her. Okay. Yeah. And Darcy's naturally anxious, uh, as I think many women are and, and men, and men, right? Humans, humans are naturally anxious. Uh, so things like I would come home and talk about my day at work and sometimes it would have been a rough day and Darcy would literally say, are you going to get fired?

Zach Spafford: Like it didn't matter what I said to her. It didn't matter that I was a really good at my job. It was, are you going to get fired? Because she automatically naturally goes to that worst case scenario. And really the, the most important part of communicating with your spouse around pornography is questioning your questions, asking yourself, am I asking this because I'm trying to solve something for me, or am I asking this because I really actually want to know them?

Zach Spafford: And intimacy is this really difficult thing that nobody actually wants to. We all say we do, and knowing someone, knowing what's actually going on for them, knowing where they really are, knowing who they really are, even though that may cause you pain is a very difficult thing to do because we want, like Darcy wants me to be a knight in shining armor.

Zach Spafford: I want her to be the perfect mom and the perfect lover and the perfect everything. Right. And. When we actually know people, pretty close, you are pretty close. That's true. When we actually know people, it's, it's, it's knowing the depth of that human that is, that makes real intimacy. I'm going to use a Harry Potter analogy.

Zach Spafford: And if you don't know what Harry Potter is, it's okay. But there's this character, right? There's this character named Severus Snape. And throughout all of the stories, he seems like this really bad dude. But, when you get to the very end, what you realize is that he's not bad, he's not entirely good, but he's complicated.

Zach Spafford: And that...

Zach Spafford: You gonna cry? I am! I'm a, I'm a crier. Like, that is what it means to be married, is to know complication and be able to handle it. And when it comes to communicating, when it comes to being a part of a, of a structure like this, when it comes to being a structure like a marriage, recognizing that the person on the other side is not bad and they're not good, they're complicated, means that you shift the way that you think, you shift the way that you talk to them, you shift the way that you address them.

Zach Spafford: And it really, if you start to know someone, it really highlights your own inability to handle discomfort. It highlights your own inability to see something you don't like and not make it about you. It really highlights a lot of the, the structural flaws in, in your own self that you have to then work on.

Zach Spafford: And so when you're communicating, one of the things that you should be working on every single time you want to talk about something that's meaningful and deep and important is asking yourself. Why is it that I feel the way that I feel about what's being told to me? Is it because it's making me insecure?

Zach Spafford: Is it because it's making me uncomfortable? Is it because I don't like that they're doing this and recognize that the communication that's happening is often two sides, just sharing what's happening for them and making it mean completely different things. And, and once you can start to parse through some of that, and it takes often, it takes somebody guiding you through that process.

Zach Spafford: Okay. Do you see how you're making this about you? Do you see how what you're sharing here isn't really a fair way of characterizing your behavior, right? Once you start to have somebody kind of point those things out to you, you can see more clearly how you've structured your life in a way that's about just kind of trying to protect the little bubble that is your brain and the, you know, the immediate one foot around you. And then you can actually begin to open up and say, "Oh, I'm not going to make what's happening for her about me. And I'm going to share what's happening with me to her and not make her reaction into anything more than that's going, that's what's going on for her."

Zach Spafford: And that's not to say that I don't love her and I don't, but like, if she gets anxious about things, I don't get lost in her anxiety anymore. Not to say that I don't empathize, not to say that I don't think it's important to stay there and choose closeness. I just don't get lost in it.

Taylor Chambers: Yeah, right. I feel like that's kind of where I've, I'm trying to enter into that third marriage, right, is like a lot of it is just like, Oh, I'm so used to absorbing, you know, my wife's emotions in particular.

Taylor Chambers: And like the practice of tolerating them without taking them in. Um, and then somehow, you know, remaining connected and like, we're still good. I still care and all of that. Um, but yeah, you're really talking about this differentiation process. And I love that. I love that you cried, um, talking about Harry Potter, which is amazing.

Taylor Chambers: Um, but, I, I,

Zach Spafford: I don't. It's embarrassing. I just,

Taylor Chambers: I cried, I cried.

Zach Spafford: I didn't want everybody to see me as more manly.

Darcy Spafford: I just take it as he just loves me so much.

Zach Spafford: I do. I do. That's what it really

Zach Spafford: is.

Taylor Chambers: I'm kind of a crier myself. I, I cried when I watched Wreck It Ralph. Um, which

Taylor Chambers: is a kids cartoon.

Zach Spafford: I went to the movies with my daughter the other day and I was like crying. I can't remember what it was that, that set me off, but I was just like, So, and then my daughter's like, are you crying? Maybe it's not even funny.

Taylor Chambers: Stop embarrassing

Taylor Chambers: me. Yeah, well, it, I mean, it came out with this idea of like, kind of accepting our complications. Um, and I think that's a really important. Uh, piece to consider for, you know, um, so many viewers, I'm sure.

Taylor Chambers: Um, I remember that, that there was a period of time where, um, ton of shame, ton of self criticism in, in my own life. And somebody got into the habit of, of like, just like telling me like, you're a good man, Taylor, right? You're, you're a good man. And that felt so life giving and so renewing. Um, and after a few years of like trying to lean into that kind of as an affirmation, I, I realized I needed to take it one step further into just like, I'm just a man, like, I'd like, I've got these good qualities, but I can't also ignore the, the reality of these things.

Taylor Chambers: So it wasn't the self criticism wasn't true, nor was the opposite of the self criticism true. There was something of like, kind of this in between and just allowing myself to be really complex. Um, and then by extension, like, you know, I guess my wife gets that same permission, my kids, you know, my coworkers and all of that, um, it really is an important step to, to understand the reality of human beings, which is like infinitely complex and that the mixed bag of like, you know, good and bad all rolled into one.

Taylor Chambers: So, yeah,

Taylor Chambers: yeah, absolutely.

Darcy Spafford: And I think. Another thing was, instead of focusing so much on pornography as the topic of discussion, right, because that was so much where when I would initiate, it was like, I just wanted to know about the porn, like the porn, porn, porn, but it's so not about the porn, right?

Darcy Spafford: It's really about the underlying like struggles and emotions that are leading to the porn that is what. It's so important to address and have those conversations about, right? I noticed you're really stressed at work. Like what's going on there? What, what's going on for you? You know, how are, how are you handling that?

Darcy Spafford: You know, have you thought of ways that you can address that or deal with that? You know, because I think for a lot of people, porn has been their number one go to for, for dealing with things, even like super happy. Like, right? Like, you know, it doesn't always have to be negative. Like, some people really struggle with feeling super happy and amazing, right?

Darcy Spafford: Like, life can't be this good. It's too easy, right? Like, oh, self sabotage. Yeah, time to light something on fire. Right? Like, seriously, right? We're, like, we as humans are often uncomfortable with emotions, whether they're painful or super good. Yeah, they're uncomfortable both ways, you know,

Zach Spafford: And I like to say porn is not the problem It can be a problem and it can be problematic, but it's not the problem It's almost invariably a symptom of what is going on internally that you are not currently capable of resolving Without learning some additional skills.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, and and that's that's a two way street, right? Darcy and I we came into this marriage at about the same level and as we've grown we have stayed at about the same level Maybe she's a half a step ahead of me. Maybe I'm a half a step ahead of her, but it's not so much that, well, this is his problem.

Zach Spafford: It's much more, neither of us really know how to deal with ourselves. So we can see this problem and use it as a catalyst to drive growth. Or I can stand, you know, the wife or the person who feels injured can stand on one side and go, yeah, fix that. And when you're done with that, then you can have a marriage again.

Zach Spafford: It's a really tough position to stand in for a couple of reasons. One, it's lonely. It really is. And two, it doesn't help your spouse because they don't, they don't know what to do. And so standing there and saying, you need to resolve this before we can really have a marriage again. I would not recommend that.

Zach Spafford: You know, that was, that was our experience for a little while. And it was painful. When we started to get on the same team, like it was us against porn, that's when the real work started to happen and the real change started to occur.

Taylor Chambers: Yeah. The, again, it's this kind of like, um, this dialectic of like, we're clarifying like whose work is whose we each have to work on self, and yet there is this quality of, of, um. You know, teamwork as like, we're, we're kind of united in our efforts, like I'm growing, you're growing, we're tackling problems through our personal development.

Taylor Chambers: Um, and so, yeah, there's kind of that, that interesting balance of, like, we still are invested, we still care, we're still connected, and yet we're really also paying attention to what is mine, what do I not pick up from you? What is, you know, what, how do I not control?

Zach Spafford: Well, this is tough, because, too often, what the spouse will say is, well, his pornography choices, I don't want to take blame for those and they're not yours to be blamed for. It's really important to recognize that when I chose porn, it wasn't because of Darcy's behavior. Now, it is important also to recognize that when we create an environment, that environment contributes to behavior.

Zach Spafford: And so part dark in part, Darcy was a part of that environment, but she was never directly responsible for my choices. So that's a really tough thing to kind of parse out because in one, on the one hand, it feels like, well, I don't, it's not fair from, you know, the wife to take responsibility for his choices.

Zach Spafford: Right. But on the other hand, it is fair for the wife to take responsibility for the way that she helps create an environment that he chooses to utilize as a reason for making choices, if that makes sense. That's a tough, that's a tough thing to parse.

Taylor Chambers: Very nuanced. Um, and yeah, yeah, I think it is actually a really powerful position if we can kind of get that sense of like, yeah, I'm not responsible for the porn, his behaviors or his behaviors entirely and, and I also co create a relationship in which, you know, these things are, are, it's populating these, these problems, you know, on a recurring basis.

Zach Spafford: What were you going to say?

Darcy Spafford: What I was going to say is, I think we find sometimes that, a husband comes and wants help. And a lot of times the wife doesn't. That's the truth of it. They're like, Nope, his problem.

Taylor Chambers: You need to go take care of it. Yeah. Right.

Darcy Spafford: And I just think, if your spouse, because the problem was there before we even got married.

Darcy Spafford: So this is his problem, right? I get it. But like, if your spouse comes into your marriage with debt and you are now married. That debt is now a marriage problem, right? It is now something that needs to be addressed and taken care of in the marriage. Yeah. And, and so it's like, to me, I, I like to think any problem in a marriage is a marriage problem, right?

Darcy Spafford: Like it's not a one person problem because a marriage is two people and there's always work that can be done on both sides. And. Yeah, I didn't cause that debt. I certainly, I didn't, I don't have anything fancy to show for those credit cards that you brought into this marriage, but I do now have debt that needs to be dealt with.

Darcy Spafford: And so it's like,

Zach Spafford: yeah, it's a, it's a delicate balance of understanding what is yours, what's not yours. And how does this whole become your responsibility?

Darcy Spafford: And I think it's really hard to think and really reflect on how am I impacting my partner? Like how do my actions and my behaviors and my attitudes and Impact my partner.

Darcy Spafford: I do impact him and it is not, I'm never responsible for him choosing porn ever. Never was, never will be, right? Like that's not the thing, but I do make an impact.

Zach Spafford: Well, and on the flip side, you're not responsible for my choices, but I do impact, like my porn use is not about you, but I do impact you when I choose them.

Zach Spafford: And that's right. So you see how delicate this balance is and how sometimes it might be valuable to take a step back and ask a third person to come in and help, move through this with you.

Taylor Chambers: Yeah, totally. Right. Um, yeah, because we can really tip into over responsibility for someone else, um, which invites control efforts, which maintains the pattern.

Taylor Chambers: And then we can, um, tip over into total disengagement of like, Hey, not my thing, not involved. Um, and kind of ignoring. The fact that there is some mutual influence going on still. Um, yeah, we were looking for that sweet spot in the middle where we can, um, claim what's ours, not claim what isn't, um, and yet still contribute to, you know, the overall, uh, experience of what it is to be in relationship with me.

Darcy Spafford: Right. Yeah. And I think, I mean, one thing that comes to mind for me, for instance, is like withholding sex, right? Like if I'm, I'm going to withhold sex until I feel safe. Yeah. Like, if, if I think about that, okay, how am I impacting my partner in that? And, and, and, and how would that flip side impact me? Mm hmm.

Darcy Spafford: Right? Like.

Zach Spafford: Mm hmm. And, well, and one of the things that I think is interesting in that idea is, how am I taking responsibility for my own sense of safety? If, if the way that I think about safety is, he never does X ever again, and let's say it's porn. Right? If, if for me to feel safe, he never. For the rest of his life will ever View pornography.

Zach Spafford: I literally can't know the result of that experiment until we're all dead. That's a pretty tough place to be. Mm hmm. Whereas I think if you're willing to say I am willing to take a risk And I'm also willing to make sure that I am in charge of myself There's a possibility that I'm gonna get hurt

Darcy Spafford: Always.

Darcy Spafford: Like I always say, like, your partner could die tomorrow, that would hurt, right? Like, you don't, you don't get to, you know, there's no magic formula in a marriage where there's not a risk of getting hurt. Yeah.

Zach Spafford: So safety's really not, safety is, it's really not an ideal that we should be searching for emotionally to an extent, right?

Zach Spafford: In a healthy, I'm going to caveat that by saying, in a healthy, non abusive relationship Safety is not, I don't think necessarily the point. Appropriate risk is I think the point, freedom to choose and not choose is the point, willingness to struggle together is the point, but safety, I'm not sure is exactly the right way to put it because when we think about safety, I think we think about never being hurt and never having to struggle and never having to have our partner, not be the person that we want them to be. That seems to me to be the framing that a lot of the betrayal world takes around this idea of safety. And I get it. I get why you'd want to be there. I get why being there feels good. The problem is that being there is nearly an impossible task. I would say it's probably an almost absolutely impossible task.

Zach Spafford: And so, if we're looking for that ideal, we have to re evaluate, again, the perspective. What is the, what is a good perspective to bring to this? Is my husband a good provider? Is he somebody who's willing to do the work? Is he somebody who is not happy with his behavior himself, and yet he struggles with it?

Zach Spafford: That's a perspective that can tell us whether or not our partner's somebody that we may want to stay with. Now, on the other hand, there are a lot of not nice people out there, right? Like, is my husband a poor partner and not monetarily, but mentally, emotionally, and physically? Is he somebody who is not invested in our relationship?

Zach Spafford: Is he someone who takes advantage? Without recognizing that he's taking advantage. Is he someone who is unwilling to change or unwilling to see your perspective? Is he someone who is not striving to improve himself? That person may not be somebody that you choose to stay with. That person is. never going to create a sense of freedom and joy and intimacy within your relationship unless he shifts.

Taylor Chambers: Right. It's not a calculated risk you'd want to take.

Zach Spafford: It may not be. You may, although you may want to take that risk. It just depends on who you are and how you feel about the process. But being aware of the the factors gives you a sense of how do I move forward knowing that none of them are safe.

Taylor Chambers: Yeah.

Taylor Chambers: Yeah. Yeah. Developmental processes aren't, aren't, what's that, what's that phrase? Um, a ship is safe at Harbor, but that's not what it's made for. Kind of an idea. Right.

Zach Spafford: Well, there's a Canadian, doctor named Jordan Peterson. He talks, he has a book called 12 rules for life, which I think is great. And he says, don't bother kids when they're skateboarding.

Zach Spafford: And what he's saying is people to develop need to take risks. And that's what kids that are skateboarding are doing. They're trying to figure out what are the limits of their capacity. And. That is what we, each of us need to be doing is like, okay, what are my limits of, what are the limits of my capacity?

Zach Spafford: What can I handle? And what am I willing to handle? What am I not willing to handle?

Taylor Chambers: Yeah, man, I've loved our discussion. We've covered a lot and I like the, I like the nuance that we've gotten to. I think this is really hard for us to see until we experience people kind of talking these ideas out. Um, and viewers, I mean, if, if there's stuff here that you're like, I got to think about that a little bit more.

Taylor Chambers: I'd invite you to think about it more.

Darcy Spafford: Totally normal to even maybe listen to this and go, I don't like what they're saying. Yes. I like that. Like that, that might be your first reaction is, oh, I hate what they're saying. And then it's like, okay, why do I hate that? Yeah. To get curious about that. What is it pushing on in me?

Darcy Spafford: What makes me uncomfortable about it? Yeah,

Taylor Chambers: yeah. Um, but you know, um, but I, I do love and appreciate the nuance because I think when, when even just one partner in the relationship starts to get it, it's a strong invitation for the other one to kind of move forward as well. And, um, we can start to resolve dilemmas, whether it's pornography or any other problem.

Taylor Chambers: Those things are kind of the The ways in which we're, um, called up into, you know, refining our relationship with ourselves and how we relate to the people in the world around us. So, um, now if, if you guys are as viewers, if you're interested in learning more from the Spafford's perspective. Um, you guys have a free masterclass as a, as a really good starting step.

Taylor Chambers: Anything you want to say about that? Like what, what's the, what's covered or what would they expect from

Darcy Spafford: that? We're in the process of redoing it right now. And it's going to be both of our lovely

Zach Spafford: faces. Right now, if you go to our website right now, today, which is October 4th, this is coming out, uh,

Taylor Chambers: 20, yeah, I think we'll actually have you on the 25th.

Zach Spafford: Okay. So on the 25th, by then you'll see the new version, which is both of us. And really we're, we're talking about the three major shifts that you need to be doing to create a thriving marriage. And it is an important around pornography or beyond pornography, really. And, and this is really the point, right?

Zach Spafford: You have to know what it is to do and then start doing it. Even when you, when, even when you're going to fail, you're going to fail. Like nobody's going to go through this course one time and be like, Oh yeah. I got it all down. I'm all set. Yeah. If you're going to fail, well,

Darcy Spafford: not the first time,

Zach Spafford: I guess. Yeah.

Zach Spafford: I, I haven't had anybody who hasn't failed at least once. And when I say fail, like make a misstep in this process. Cause it's, it's about a learning curve that you don't need, like, you just don't know how to do this yet. And that's okay. Take the time, start to learn. And if you want to, you know, Get some help on it.

Zach Spafford: Let us know. You can go to zachspafford. com slash free call and watch the webinar. Once you're done watching the webinar, you can set up a free call with me, zachspafford. com slash work with me. If you or me, or, or you can set up a free call with Darcy. I've had, I can't tell you how many wives are like, Hey, can I start working with Darcy?

Zach Spafford: My husband's not ready, but I know what Darcy has is what I need. That starts the process. And it's a huge shift. My favorite is when they get about halfway through their sessions and then the spouse is like, can, can I do it now? Can I join? Yes. Yeah. And yeah, absolutely. That's, that's the work we want to help everybody.

Taylor Chambers: All right, well, uh, viewers, again, I hope that this has stirred some things up. Uh, I hope it's gotten you to reflect on kind of where you're at in your overall process and how you frame your understanding of the foreign dilemma that, that may be in your marriage. Um, so, um, take a look at that free resource.

Taylor Chambers: It'll be down below the video. So just click the link, head on over there and get access to it so you can kind of find those. It was three steps to a thriving. A marriage thriving beyond porn or something.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. The three shifts you need to have a marriage thriving beyond pornography.

Taylor Chambers: Yeah, there it is.

Taylor Chambers: Perfect. Okay. All right. Well, we'll call it there. Darcy, Zach, thank you guys so much. Um, it's been a pleasure. I loved our discussion today. I know it's going to bring a lot of value, so appreciate it so much.

Zach Spafford: Absolutely. Thanks for having us. We'll see ya.